[00:00:15] Speaker A: Hello. Welcome to the Roundhouse Podcast with Paul Solentrap of Wichita State University Strategic Communications. Thanks so much for listening. Today's guests are Bob Lutz and Mike Kennedy. We are going to reminisce about the Mark Turgeon era at Wichita State. Mark will be honored at Thursday's Northern Iowa Wichita State gig, recognition of his induction into the Kansas Sports hall of Fame. Mark coached wichita State from 2000 to 2007 before spending four seasons at Texas A&M and 11 at Maryland. He compiled a 12890 record in those seven seasons with the Shockers. Three trips to the NIT, the 2006 MVC title, and a trip to the NCAA tournament's Sweet 16. To understand Mark's place in Shocker history, you have to know where the program was in the 1990s. Former athletic director Jim Schauss hired Mark on March 11, 2000. In the previous 11 seasons, Shockers enjoyed two inning seasons and did not play in either the NIT or NCAA tournaments. In addition, Levitt arena, the accompanying facilities had really decayed, fallen behind. Jim Schouse needed men's basketball to thrive, so he hired Mark Turgeon. They renovated Levitt arena into Charles Koch arena and those moves set the athletic department on a new course and a lot of success followed. So today we have Voice of the Shockers, Mike Kennedy, Bob Lutz, who covered those years as an EAG Wichita Eagle columnist. He is now host of Bob and Jeff. They will take us through the Turgeon era and what it meant to shocker basketball. So Mike, let's start with a little background. Shocker basketball, a lot of history, a lot of success in the 1980s with Gene Smithson and Eddie Fogler. Then things got rough starting in 1990. Remind people what kind of task was facing 35 year old Mark Turgeon when he arrived in 2000.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Well, and you mentioned just two winning seasons in the previous 11 years and those two, they won one more than they lost. So that's where it was. And some 20 loss seasons in there and just some embarrassing losses and honestly, kind of some ugly basketball to watch too. So, you know, the talent level was down. Obviously that was going to be. I think the first task was recruiting to a higher level and then, you know, getting things back to where people were excited about coming to games again. There was a lot of work to do there, Bob.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: A lot of turnover in coaches, turnover in athletic directors. It felt like Levitt arena went from this magical great basketball place in 1983 to, you know, just not a great place by 1990, what's your memory? What was shocker basketball like and what was Mark Turgeon facing?
[00:02:55] Speaker C: Well, as Mike alluded to, it was a bad 10 year period before Mark got here. You had players openly revolting. John Smith, Jamie Arnold, Maurice Evans, all under different coaches. Mike Cohen, Randy Smithson, and then between them, Scott Thompson. None of them could get this thing turned around. I think they made genuine efforts. We all thought Scott Thompson was going to be the right guy. We all thought Randy Smithson with his pedigree was going to be the right guy, but didn't happen. So there was some level of, okay, who are they going to get now? And when Jim Schauss announced that it was going to be Mark Turgeon coming from Jacksonville State, a former KU player, I think there was many raised eyebrows. We want to bring Mark Turgeon here to get Wichita State basketball on the right track. So he started with some doubters for sure.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, Mark was a significant name in the state because of his career as a Kansas Jayhawk. He was kind of this undersized, gritty point guard. Played a lot for KU in a really successful era for KU basketball. He was from Topeka, won two state titles at Hayden High School. Mike, what were your first impressions of a young Mark Turgeon after he came to Wichita State?
[00:04:20] Speaker B: You know, it's kind of hard to remember. One of the things I remember was that he really took the time to spend some time with the players who were in the program and try to gain an understanding of just what their feelings were, kind of what they had been through, and kind of went from there. And I thought, I was impressed with that, that he really had a pretty good feel for the players he was inheriting and kind of what they'd experienced and how to go forward.
You know, you mentioned played at ku. It was even like a grad assistant for a year or two there. So he was.
He was in that system that sort of emanated from North Carolina and then through Larry Brown and Roy Williams at ku, who he played for. That was at the time maybe as good a system as there was in college basketball. And he had embraced that and maybe made a few little tweaks to it, like all coaches do. But right from the beginning, the attention to detail and that sort of thing was pretty evident.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: Bob, I'm sure you would have spent a lot of time with Mark early in his tenure, getting a feel for him and the program. What were your early impressions of him?
[00:05:28] Speaker C: I remember the news conference in which he was announced was on a Saturday morning, and for Some reason I had been somewhere else on Friday night and I was driving a rental pickup. I don't know why I remember that, but that's what I came to Koch arena in and the Saturday morning news conference. I knew of Mark obviously from his KU days and even before that from his days at Topeka Hayden High School where he was a very, very good player on some very, very good teams. So it was obvious to me that his basketball pedigree couldn't be questioned. I thought it was a really good hire from the get go. I just wondered how Shocker fans would react to the whole KU thing. And there were more than a few who held him at arm's length simply because he had a KU background. But I always. I thought that. I thought the hire was a sound one from the outset just because I knew this guy knew basketball.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: He wore a black and yellow tie, which you asked him about. I looked up the article from the. From the hiring. You asked him about that. He said he had had it for years, so it was not something he had to go out and go out and buy. So that was. That was a point in his favor immediately. All right, first trivia question.
Which Turgeon era player scored the most points as a Shocker? Mike, what's your guess?
[00:06:57] Speaker B: I'm gonna say Randy Burns.
[00:06:59] Speaker C: You're asking Mike, who's obviously looked it up?
[00:07:01] Speaker B: No, I didn't actually.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: I would also say Randy Burns.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: I wasn't expecting that one.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: You both nailed it. Randy Burns scored 1,599 points from 2001 to 2005.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: And I would say that. Can I get into Randy Burns for a second?
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:17] Speaker C: I think he's one of the most underrated players in this program's history. If you look at. We're going to talk a lot about Mark Turgeon and his ability to get this program on the right track finally, after many years of being on the wrong track, that early recruiting was the big thing. And Randy Burns was one of those very early recruits that really instilled a lot of enthusiasm into basketball here.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: No question. Randy Burns, Jamar Howard, Rob Campman and Paul Miller all part of that first one of his early recruiting classes, I.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Guess, actually the first, I would say, because that was his second year as head coach. Those guys came in as freshmen, so they would have been the first group he really had a chance to recruit after he took the job here.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: No question. Is there a game early in his tenure that stands out as an indication. All right, Mark Turgeon can get this program up and running. Mike, any memories of early Mark Turgeon winning this?
[00:08:13] Speaker B: I, when I thought about that, I did remember that they beat K State his first year. It actually was his first game. It was Aaron Wichita's very first game as Shocker head coach. Now, K State wasn't real good then. Wichita State beat him again the next year up at Bramblidge. But just the fact that it was Kansas State and that Wichita State beat them, they also beat Oklahoma State that first year. And again, while those programs may have been down a little bit, Those were Big Eight, Big 12 programs that Wichita State certainly had not been beating. And so I think that sort of set a tone right away that, hey, maybe something's possible here.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Those would have been good credibility building wins. Bob, how about you?
[00:08:52] Speaker C: Yeah, he caught people's attention by winning quite a few games early in his first year. Now he went on a big losing streak later that year, but I would point out the win in Manhattan against k State the second year when they actually got to 500. I think there was. He really started to build some enthusiasm. Some of those young players, it was becoming obvious that they were better players than we'd seen here in quite some time.
So I think, I think year two was really the taking off point for Mark Turgeon and those players you talked.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: About earlier, pivotal early recruit. Who would you point to, Bob?
[00:09:36] Speaker C: Paul Miller and the group we just talked about. But Paul became a Missouri Valley Conference player of the year.
One of the good guys that I've ever covered in sports.
Big guy who really won the crowd over. You know, he came here to play baseball too, and an injury kind of curtailed that endeavor. But if I had to point to Juan, I think the success that Paul Miller had kind of makes him stand out a little.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: Yes. Brent Kimnitz gets a lot of mileage out of claiming an assist for recruiting Paul Miller. Paul, I think he just played in the fall. I don't think he ever appeared and I don't think he lasted until the spring. That's a tough ask to do both sports. Mike, who would you point to again?
[00:10:24] Speaker B: You know that first class. So we've mentioned the names. The thing that was unique about Paul was that he had a stress fracture, fractured his foot about the second game he played that freshman year. And so he was the one who was still around for that 0506 season. That became sort of the anchor. But that group was the basis, the foundation for what Mark was able to build over those next four years. And they added some guy, had a couple of junior college transfers. Like CC McFaul and Aaron Hogg early and some role players, but that group was the foundation. And then Paul carried over. And then you had Kyle Wilson, Transfer and Sean O'Geary, P.J. kuznard, those guys that were the foundation of the 06 Sweet 16 team. But yeah, Paul. I'll tell you an interesting story about Paul, Mark. Tad Boyle came to me. Tad Boyle asked me if I would record a little snippet, kind of an imaginary game with crowd noise and stuff. And it was Paul Miller. So it was Paul Miller scoring the winning basket to win the Missouri Valley Conference Tournament, take the Shockers to the ncaa. And Tad was taking Paul back to the airport after his recruiting visit and played that in the car. And Paul kind of even teared up, I guess, and got pretty excited about it. And I guess that was kind of a factor in helping get him to come here.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Much more significant than Brent Chemnitz, I'm sure. I'm going to make. Don't tell Brent. Yes, Paul Miller, no doubt that first class was really important. Mark went 9 and 19 his first season. And then those guys started coming in. Randy Burns and Jamar Howard and that group, they were 15 and 15 in his second season and then kind of took off from there.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: Can I mention, in depth, a little more in depth, Jamar Howard, Because I'm.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Glad I was going to go there myself. Yeah.
[00:12:13] Speaker C: Because, you know, he was a well known commodity. Getting him to come here was a big win from Bishop Liaise.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: So, yeah, high profile recruiting, the state of Kansas.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: And then he came here and he instilled not only ability, but attitude.
The fans loved him. And that's because he played with a chip on his shoulder. Tremendous passion.
Sometimes maybe crossed the line, but it had been so long since this fan base had had anybody to really grab onto a player that really instilled emotion in them. I think Jamar Howard is instrumental in not only the Turgeon era, but the Shocker basketball era, no question.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: And when he came up as a possible candidate for the hall of Fame, I'm on that committee and started looking back at his record and his stats and everything, man, he was even better than I remember. And I was on the all conference defensive team maybe all four years. He was here, defensive player of the year a couple of times. And just I'll never forget a play where he drove the baseline and jumped over Brody Darin from Creighton, who was 6, 8 and 240 pounds, jumped over him and dumped. I mean, and just to make plays like that certainly could get the team going, get the crowd going.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Fabulous athlete, great defensive player. And as Bob said, the kind of player, if he was on your team, you loved him. I think the other opponents really hated love him. Creighton did not love him. No, he was. He had an attitude. He was not a. Afraid to talk and gesture and do all those kind of things. But yeah, I would say he and Randy Burns would have a. You know, when you start talking about halls of fame and things like that, just their role in lifting this program out of the. Out of the doldrums would be very.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: My son and I would love to see Randy Burns get into the Shocker hall of Fame.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah, he'd say that.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: All right, well, I think that's under consideration.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Seems like a strong candidate for what he helped the Shocker program do. The rise of WSU basketball during this time, it coincided with the Missouri Valley Conference really improving. Both entities struggled in the 1990s. Then the Valley regularly started putting two schools in the NCAA tournament. Had three bids in 05, four in 06, WSU and Bradley both going to the Sweet 16.
What role did the Valleys improvement? And they would be linked together. But Bob, what role did the Valleys improvement play in helping push WSU forward?
[00:14:43] Speaker C: Like you said, I think it all just kind of came together, the perfect storm. You had Bradley becoming good again. You had Creighton being good again and Wichita State and Southern Illinois, and my God, you think back to that and there would never have been a reason to leave the Valley had it stayed at that level or close to it. It was just a heyday for the Valley, almost a second coming of the Valley of Death.
I don't think he had the individual stars at that time, but it was really, really strong. And I think Wichita State, you put a challenge in front of Mark Turgeon. Okay, here we got a pretty good conference. These teams are pretty good. You gotta keep up. Most of the time he's gonna meet that challenge. So I think it all just kind of fed each other.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Mike, the Valley in those years, what was the feel? What was the atmosphere? How did they get things done?
[00:15:37] Speaker B: You know, just looking back, boy, the early 90s was just a rough period. And then you started seeing some coaching hires that, you know, Mark Turgeon here was after three basically unsuccessful hires. And at some of the other schools, you saw Jim Less at Bradley get things turned around there. Of course, Dana at Creighton.
Tulsa left the league in the mid to late 90s 96. They had an incredible series of coaching hires for a program at that level, they lost Nolan, but then they had Steve. I don't know what it were. Steve Robinson, Tubby Smith, Bill Self, they just kept making good hires, but not everybody was that fortunate. And then Kevin Stallings got Illinois State going again. Tom Richardson followed him. Royce Waltman had Indiana State and a couple of NCAA tournaments where they'd been a doormat in the league. Southern Illinois, Rich Herron kind of got it turned around. They'd been at the bottom of the league, but then Bruce Weber and Matt Painter for a year and Chris Lowery. And so I just think, you know, several schools made really good coaching hires. And I think, as you said, it was rare that we had an NBA guy coming out of the league. The individual talent wasn't quite at that level. But I think those coaches had a good feel for what it took, talent wise, to win at a high level in this league. And it got very, very competitive.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: I think one of the things I remember about the 06 season was talking with Bob in maybe February, January, February, and there were a lot of like, 54 to 49 games and thinking, is this? How good is this conference? And then you got to the NCAA tournament and you began to realize these guys really coach. They really play defense, they play smart basketball, and they were very good. Bradley beat Pittsburgh and Kansas to get to the Sweet 16. The Shockers beat Seton hall in Tennessee. I think the Valley's resume held up really well.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: And there were four teams in that year and should have been five. Missouri State probably got the worst screwing from the committee I've ever seen. They were like 22 or something in the RPI and didn't get in.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: So pour one out for Barry Hinson. That seems to be a lingering injustice. No doubt. Describe the rivalries with Creighton and Southern Illinois, Bob, I'll let you go first.
[00:17:54] Speaker C: Well, there's never been, outside of maybe Tulsa, in terms of the conference rivalry, there's never been one like Wichita State, Creighton. And it really lit up in those years because Wichita State was able to contribute to the rivalry. Those games were incredible. And of course, they'd extended into the Greg Marshall era, probably reached its apex at that time, but certainly the Matt Breyer shot.
Man, Creighton's still stinging from that. That was, in my opinion, one of the two or three most electric moments that I've ever seen at Koch arena and Creighton. For some reason, I think it's a proximity. Creighton and Wichita State seem to always be gunning for championships, not just in basketball. But in a lot of other sports and over time, it just created this great rivalry.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: And I think a couple of things with that one. Dana's a tremendous coach. He's proven that over and over. But a little bit of an aura of arrogance there that I think our fans says and their fans could really be nasty. That was a hard place to play and it was a nasty environment. So I think our fans picked up on that as well. But as Bob said, for something to be a rivalry, you both have to be good. It has to be meaningful. And it got to where both schools were competing for conference championships. The games really meant something. He mentioned Matt Breyer's shot. PJ Kuznard blocked a Nate Funk three point attempt that ended a game one time that could have gone the other way. So, and I even. I looked it up a few years ago, just how many games through that stretch and as you mentioned, on into the Marshall era that were decided, you know, like one possession type games, both regular season and in the conference tournament. It was just incredible.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: Creighton for Southern Illinois, that was a good rivalry, but it didn't approach Creighton, in my opinion. But Southern Illinois played so hard and they had really good players during a lot of these years we're talking about. They played defense like nobody's business. And so when you played Southern Illinois, the people who were watching that game knew it was going to be knock down, drag out, battle. And I think, I actually think the fans respected Southern Illinois. I don't think they respected Craig.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Southern Illinois, as Bob alluded to, that was a tough physical and mental matchup. You really had to bring some toughness and that just fans certainly had to feel that when you played them.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Yeah, Southern Illinois had a lot of success. A couple sweet 16s, Bruce Weber and Matt Painter, and then Chris Lowry. I think Creighton was the school that Wichita State was trying to climb over early in Mark's tenure. And Creighton seemed to have some sort of. They were very good. They were very good in St. Louis. I think, you know, the proximity, five hours between the two cities, fans were able to travel. And then they were both very.
Brought a lot of fans to St. Louis to the Valley tournament. So there were a lot of touch points for that rivalry. No question. Next trivia question. This will be harder, Bob. I'll let you go first. First win.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: I get to go first on the harder question.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: First win over a ranked opponent under Mark Octurgeon.
[00:21:19] Speaker C: Oh, my God, Mike.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: No idea, no idea.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Here's my clue. It happened in Wichita but not in Coco.
[00:21:31] Speaker C: Oh, out at the barn.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Oh yeah. But.
Oh man. And I remember some of those games but who did they. Gosh, I don't know.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: Sorry.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: February 15th, 2003. The Shockers defeated number 12 Creighton at the Kansas Coliseum. 80, 74. Okay, I remember a picture. I think the Eagle ran a picture of Fridge Holman being carried off the court. I think Aaron Hogg had a big game.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: He did.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: That was the Kyle Korver era Blue Jays.
[00:22:01] Speaker C: Yes, Aaron Hogg did have a big game and you know, you speak of a guy like Fridge Holman and maybe most Shocker fans don't remember him, but that's the perfect example of a player who really got this fan base going and they loved him and he played with flair and enthusiasm and always fun to talk to and didn't mind showing emotion. And I have great memories of Fridge Holman. I thought he was a perfect player for this program.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Fridge Holman a point guard, probably 5 10, 5 11. But yes, a lot of flair New York City. I think he went on to play in the one of the and one mixtape kind of things. He had a lot of, a lot of skills. Aaron Hogg, to remind people about a 6 foot 6 wing, really good shooter and he was another important part of this Shocker team.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Hurt his knee his second year here would have been his senior year and wasn't quite as effective. That's too bad because he was a very good player.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I always thought that was a underrated problem for the program. If he would have been at full strength, if they would have gotten junior year Aaron Hogg as a senior, that would have been, that would have been helpful.
Shockers improved quickly under Mark Turgeon, but there was still a bit of a star crossed feel at times. They struggled in St. Louis, the Valley tournament 2005, they were 18 3, seemed like they were on their way to the NCAA tournament and they struggled in February, had the home loss to Northern Iowa. A lot of people remember on Ben Jacobson the player, not the coach. He hit a miracle heave at the buzzer. Bob, what got this program over the hump?
[00:23:41] Speaker C: I just think the experience of that team in 05 06. I just think that they were built to, built to win that year. They had so many veteran players who had been through these struggles.
You talk about that. I wouldn't call it a collapse the previous year, but certainly a disappointing finish to that season. But I think these guys were pretty strong minded guys and they didn't let that defeat them. And they came back that year and they had a veteran team with a lot of talent. And I just think that Mark had been building the program over a long period of time and they were finally able to get over that hump of St. Louis and get into the NCAA tournament for the first time in a long time and then win a couple games. And I don't know if Mike would agree with this, but even with the success we saw under Greg Marshall, and that included a Final Four, an undefeated regular season, the enthusiasm in Wichita, Kansas for that NCAA tournament in 06, I don't know that I've ever seen anything like it.
It was like, oh my gosh, we can still do this. It was a lot of frustration, pent up frustration released. In my opinion.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: I would say probably all of that emotion and everything else enthusiasm might have even been a little greater when they got to the Final Four a few years later. But yes, exactly what you're talking about. And that's a reason I've always said and will continue to say that we all owe Mark Turgeon a great vote of gratitude just to let everybody understand what this program could still be. Because in that period you're talking about before he was hired and the records were bad and all of that, that was also a time when college sports was kind of changing a lot. We saw more of the emergence of what are now the Power 5 conferences. And there just seemed to be more and more separation between those schools and those conferences in the Missouri Valley and Wichita State. And you wondered if Wichita State could ever get back to that level and to get to a sweet 16 definitely demonstrated that it was possible and that created a lot of hope. I think you also asked about turning the corner and not that there wasn't before, but there was a special chemistry on that 06 team. And part of it was something I don't think I've ever seen. In the same way they had two walk ons, Cameron Ledford and Nick Rogers, who were four year walk ons and they became very significant leaders on that team. Didn't play many minutes. Nick was a pretty good defensive player, but they were guys the other guys listened to. They had a strong influence on that team, helped keep them on an even keel. And that was part of what just all kind of came together that year.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Let me run through some of the names for people who are not familiar with that 06 team. Paul Miller, we've mentioned Sean O'Geary, a guard, excellent three point shooter. PJ Cousnard is probably well known to Shocker fans. He was a sophomore, just kind of a do it all. Could score, really defend, rebound. Had just one of the great games in Shocker history, I think against Tennessee in the NCAA tournament. Kyle Wilson, 6 foot 8 power forward, could do a lot of different things. Kron Bradley, a guard from Marquette, very talk about attitude and playing hard and feisty. Kran did all those kind of things. Ryan Martin came off the bench and Matt Breyer came off the bench. So really not a tremendously deep team. Lost Jared Young kind of midseason, who had shown some promises, but boy, they, they played their roles, they were unselfish and they played really hard.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: You know, it's funny you mentioned not very deep a few years later, a couple of years later, whatever. Matt Breyer was a grad assistant for Greg Marshall early in his tenure. And we were on a flight coming back from somewhere and we were talking about that team and Matt even said something about, you know, who played on that team. And we looked at the name, we kind of looked at the names going, wow, that was kind of it. Seven guys was really about what played most of the time. It was not a real deep team in terms of numbers, but managed to get it done.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: And Kuznard provided that team with so much because he was an unbelievable athlete, very high basketball iq, perfect guy for those real veterans, a team led by seniors. But pj, PJ was the man.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: And you mentioned the block against Nate Funk. He also blocked a shot by Patrick O'Brien early in that 06 season. Bradley was a very good team. Patrick O'Brien went on to be a. He was seven footer, a lottery pick in the NBA and very close game in this arena. And PJ came up with a really nice defensive play there.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: You know, in talking about taking that next step, people may not remember the NIT game and they got to the Elite Eight of the NIT the year before that, NC Tournament. And right at the end of that game, there were two plays that have never happened in the same game. Again, I don't think the Shockers deliberately missed a free throw, which never works, and got the rebound and put it in to take the lead. And then with maybe less than a second or less than two seconds, Vanderbilt throws it the length of the floor. Perfect. Perfect on the guy's hands. Lays it in at the buzzer to win it. But somebody screwed up on the defensive coverage and. And Mark never said who. PJ and Jamar Howard were the two guys back, both great defenders, but one was supposed to Break up, follow the three point shooter at the top of the key. And they both went with him and it left the big guy open for that long length of the court pass. And so that ended PJ's freshman year. And to come back and hit the big three against Tennessee at the end of that game and to finish the way he did was a really nice vindication and turnaround for him also.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that 05 team went 22 and 10 and kind of stumbled down the end, but they redeemed themselves and I think they reignited some enthusiasm in the fans. They beat Houston and they beat Western Kentucky in the NIT before going to Vanderbilt and losing that close game.
Yeah, the 06 team, I think they were picked fifth in the Valley. They had lost Burns and Howard and Kampman. So not a lot of expectations, at least externally.
What made them go? What made that team good?
05 06? How would you characterize them?
[00:30:25] Speaker C: I just say that having the veterans, guys that have been in the program, remember as Mike said, the NIT the previous year, well, they'd also gone three years in a row to the nit, gained a lot of post season experience playing good teams and some memorable games in the nit. So I just think it was the culmination of program building that led to that really good year in 0506 with a lot of good players. Not a deep team as we've talked about, but the guys who did play were all really high quality players.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think exactly what Bob said. And they kind of filled all the roles even though there weren't that many of them. They, you know, you had a couple of point guards, yet Kyle Wilson came in as a transfer and kind of took Kampman's place and did a lot of the things he could do. A 68 guy that could also shoot it outside. And they just, they filled the necessary roles to be successful.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Ryan Martin kind of had to do it all coming off the bench. He was only maybe 65 or 66 KCK K kid. So he would play back up forward, back up center. And really had a nice, nice season too. A big contributor to that team.
[00:31:37] Speaker C: Perfect role for him.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Unselfish rebound play, defense, score when needed to. Ryan was a significant part of that team. I mentioned PJ Cousnard against Tennessee in 06. Let me go back and remind people. 20 points, made 6 of 7 shots, 9 rebounds and 5 assists. So really solid, solid outing for PJ to get the Shockers into the sweet. Matt Breyer's three pointer to beat Creighton on February 14, 2006. 62, 61. Overtime. Put that shot into historical perspective. Bob, you mentioned it previously, so I'll give you first shot.
[00:32:15] Speaker C: Well, I just think, you know, that it was obvious that Wichita State was headed for potentially big things. Creighton, their number one rival, a very good team. You get them at home. Only one time a year do these fans get Creighton in their home building. So the build up to that game between two contenders in the Missouri Valley Conference was huge. Anyway, it was tight throughout. It was really. Both teams played excellent defense in that game. It was very hard to score. And then you get Matt Breyer scoring late. Three pointer, win it all. The place erupted. It's got to be right there with some of the stalwart stuff. And anything you can think of, it's right there.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Funny story about that. And I rarely remember anything I say particular. Colorado remember that one. And I said, briar for the wind. Yes, Dave, was. It counts. Yes, it counts. Yes, it counts. My wife took a recording of that, put it on her phone as her ringtone. And she said then she was in some places where she was getting some funny looks or her phone would ring and there was a man's voice going, yes.
So she took it off. But yeah, that was. That was one of my most memorable moments and memorable calls.
[00:33:38] Speaker A: And I think Mark Turgeon's. One of the things he said after that game was that seemed like the kind of play that had always gone against the Shockers or too often had gone against the Shockers in the previous seasons, and it was a memorable day for that outcome. But also, that was the day the Shockers jumped into first place. There had been a log jam, I believe Northern Iowa and Southern Illinois both lost on that same day. So you started Valentine's Day in 2006, and the Shockers were, you know, kind of in a. In a. In a jumble. And by the end of the night, the Shockers were in first place and they were able to win out in the Valley. They lost George Mason in the bracket.
[00:34:14] Speaker C: Yeah, they had the bracket buster a few days later in Coke arena, lost the game to George Mason, who also beat them in the Sweet Sixteen in Washington, D.C. who could have thought that?
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:29] Speaker C: What a strange twist in that season.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Tony Skin and Jai Lewis, George Mason, they were very, very good this year. Yeah, the bracket buster played a. Played a significant role in some Shocker moments during those years.
Tad Boyle, Mark had some excellent assistant coaches. John Prilo went on to become a head coach. Mike Rohn is still coaching with Tad Boyle at the University of Colorado. But I think Tad observers would say really played a significant role. Bob, I know you and Tad really had a good relationship. How would you characterize what Tad contributed to this team?
[00:35:03] Speaker C: Well, I think he was not only a very good basketball coach, but Mark Turgeon's best friend. So in that way I think Mark felt tremendously comfortable having your right hand guy being a lifelong friend or at least from their basketball days.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: And they had played together at ku, so they had a long, long term relationship.
[00:35:24] Speaker C: So I think, I think Mark felt a tremendous amount of security with Tad at his side. Tad was marvelous coach, was comfortable in his role, loved being Mark Turgeon's assistant coach, top assistant coach.
I think he got a strong input into what the program looked like.
So I think they were great together. I think they just meshed something else.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: That I think was interesting. I think it was Tad that told me this. When they first met, they didn't get along. Mark's intensity, like in pickup games and stuff. They had some fights and pickup games when they were at KU before they got to know each other. But Ted is a very upbeat, positive sort of personality. Mark can be kind of a glass half empty guy. And so I think Tad was probably good, a good influence in picking Mark up when he needed it and that sort of thing and vice versa. On one occasion I remember there was a real intense game at Missouri State and something happened where the Missouri State bench, they all had their arms crossed signaling intentional foul and Tad lost it. He started down the sideline after him with his arms crossed going what's this? And Bark had to grab him and bring him back that time.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: They were a good combination, no doubt. Tad left here after that 06 season to go to Northern Colorado. He was from Greeley Colorado guy and then has been at Colorado and had really good success there. Final trivia question. We had two Shockers and this kind of fits the way Mark Turgeon's team played. It was very unselfish, very team oriented. Two Shockers scored 30 or more points during Mark's tenure. Who are they? Two 30 point games by a shocker from 0 2007.
[00:37:19] Speaker C: I would have to guess against Southern Illinois.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yes, I'd have to guess O'Geary Terrell.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: Benton had 32 against Texas Arlington in 2001.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: A bunch of threes. I forgot about that.
[00:37:30] Speaker A: That's right. The youngster From Derby had 32 and then Paul Miller. And this would be on the list of great shocker individual Performances during that time. Paul Miller had 30 in a double overtime win over SIU in 2006, also just a crucial game to get them on their way to the Valley title.
Most memorable regular season game. Mike, which one pops out at you?
[00:37:54] Speaker B: I would, I guess I'd have to say the win that clinched the Valley title in 06. And you know, I noticed there was a, there's been like a photo or whatever out there mentioning Mark's return for this game on Thursday and it's him on the ladders, cut down the net, pumping his fist to the crowd. I mean, you know, to experience that again after as long as it had been since the Shockers cut down the nets for anything that's really remember, in fact, I remember calling Mike Reese at the broadcaster at Southern Illinois because they'd done. And I said does it ever get old? You know, you've done it five or six years in your own. Said never. And it, you know, it's true, it was but that was something we hadn't experienced for a long time and I just, I'll never forget that scene.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Yeah, those reactions and those scenes I think reflect a pent up demand. I mean it had been a long time going back to 87, 88, 89 since the Shockers had been in postseason play, since they had experienced those kind of things. And I think it really just caught on with the fans because it was new and it was an affirmation, like you said, that the Wichita State could be a player. Bob, regular season game. Anyone join?
[00:39:06] Speaker C: Well, I think the back to back home wins that year, you mentioned them against Southern Illinois, double overtime, Creighton overtime. Now they had a couple road games in between those, but can you imagine the excitement that was created with beating two really, really good teams back to back on your home floor, both games with extra minutes. I think that was really something. And then that's what made that loss to George Mason, kind of made us scratch our heads like what happened there. We didn't, I don't think we understood how good George Mason was. So. And in retrospect, it was an interesting season.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Yes, no doubt in retrospect, playing George Mason four days after that game against Creighton probably was not to the Shocker's advantage. After beating Creighton, then the Shockers go on the road. They had to survive at Drake. A Paul Miller tip in, if I remember that in the last three or four seconds got them a win over Drake to clinch a share of the Valley title. And then they came home and handled Illinois State to cut down the nets and do all that kind of stuff. I'm going to pick one from the next season at Syracuse. And it jumps out at me because I think I will always remember after the. The Shockers won at Syracuse. Walking out of the Carrier Dome and just kind of shaking my head. And at that point, Wichita State had gone on the road. They had won at George Mason. When George Mason dropped its Final Four banner. They had won at number 20, Louisiana State. Louisiana State had been in the Final Four the previous year. And then they went on the road and they won 64, 61 at Syracuse. And that was kind of accumulation. I just remember thinking, boy, this team might be the biggest story in college basketball at this point, just winning.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Where they had another PJ Kuznard block at the end of that game.
[00:40:54] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: Helped preserve that win. That's right.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: Was it Eric Devendorf that he got into? I think, yes.
[00:41:01] Speaker C: There was all kinds of anticipation and then the bottom fell out and nobody really understood how it all happened or why it happened. Most of all, Mark Turgeon, who Mike mentioned Glass Half Empty kind of personality, you know, was not always willing to look at the positives.
That really. Boy, that really was a gut check for him. A gut punch to see that team go all the way from. I believe they got.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: And they got up to number eight in the nation. And then. Yeah, and then they kind of struggled.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: Had a 17 and 14.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Lost four in a row. And they were kind of just fighting uphill the rest of the season.
[00:41:44] Speaker C: You know, it had been a. Been a fight to keep him here at Wichita State. He was. Remember the big rally we had here at Koch arena that helped maybe convince him to stay for that next season after being candidate to go elsewhere.
There were no rallies to save Mark Turgeon after the 0607 season.
[00:42:05] Speaker A: And one of the painful things about that was you had the non conference. I mean, that's what that program had always struggled with was one scheduling them and then two winning prime time non conference games. Well, they went on the road and won those non conference games and then just really struggled in the valley. Went 8 and 10 in the valley. And I think we ended up finding out lsu, Syracuse struggled. They were not. While they were really prominent programs, by the end of the year, those wins did not look quite as good. Although. Yeah. Walking out of the Carrier Dome, I think that's a moment I will always remember. Just winning in that venue.
Postseason most memorable game. Mike, what would you pick?
[00:42:44] Speaker B: Well, I'll mention again, just because it's one. I'll never forget that loss at Vanderbilt in the nit. To have those two plays back to back at the end of the game that you just. It's just weird. You just never see that again. But the win over Tennessee and what always is coupled with that memory is the fact that after Wichita State beat Seton Hall, Dave Dahl and I sat there and watched all the other games at Greenville that year, and the next one was Tennessee and Winthrop, and then we were going to play the winner. And we got, toward the end of that game, started hoping that Tennessee would win. We thought that Winthrop team was a tougher matchup for Wichita State in Tennessee. And of course, that was. Greg Marshall and Jim Schauss saw the same thing. And when the job opened up here, that was what he went back to as far as his leading candidate.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: But Greensboro, North Carolina, and gosh, what.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: Was the kid's name? Chris.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Chris Lofton.
[00:43:44] Speaker B: Lofton hit like almost a falling down in the corner three to win that game in overtime for Tennessee. But I remember Mark saying to me, I would love to see these guys win at least one more game, because when you go from 64 teams down to 16, the focus of attention is so much greater. And it would be such a cool experience. And, you know, we hadn't been to an NCAA tournament for, what was it, 18 years. And so I wasn't familiar with that either because so much had changed with social media and the Internet and all of that. That had not been there the last time we'd been. And it was amazing. I probably did a dozen to 15 interviews that week all over the country on various talk shows and things. And so I remember that that was something Mark really wanted his players to have a chance to experience.
[00:44:36] Speaker C: I don't think that can be disputed, that the Tennessee win, but I want to mention one a couple years before that in the NIT at home against Florida State. Oh, man, that's one of the best basketball games I've ever seen with one of the best individual performances. What was the kid's. Tim Pickett was making everything. I mean, it was absolutely incredible. Wichita State played excellent game that night, but they couldn't figure out a way to get in the way of Tim Pickett. And boy, this place was so loud.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: Those of us who go back to the Iowa game in eight, I don't think it's ever been louder than that. But that Florida State crowd that night had to be right there as loud or almost.
[00:45:22] Speaker C: Well, they were entertained. Not only was it a great game but it was an entertaining game because this guy was just unconscious. And so were several of the shockers. I mean, they were making shots like crazy.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: Jamar Howard had a big game, so that would have been the end of the 04 season. And my memory is there was disappointment. They were not going to the NCAA tournament again, although they had a, you know, had a good season. And then they announced Florida State coming to Wichita. And that was a really, really juiced up the people. So it was a good crowd. I was not there, but yeah, I think.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: Was that double or triple?
[00:45:54] Speaker A: Double overtime. 76, 65. Florida State won double overtime.
[00:45:59] Speaker B: I remember Pickett going up for a three at either the end of regulation or the end of the first overtime. And Jamar went flying at him and he kind of tucked the ball in. He's in the air and kind of tucked the ball in and got it off and hit a three to tie it again and send it to the overtime or the second overtime.
[00:46:17] Speaker C: I believe he was 35 for 35.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: That look, yes, I fell down in my homework. But Tim Pickett and that Florida State game is. You're exactly right. The people that were there will always bring that up as one of the most fun atmospheres. I think the other interesting thing about the 06 team was the NCAA tournament had just exploded over the 90s. It had just become bigger and bigger. You mentioned social media and TV and all that kind of stuff. And Wichita State fans had been sidelined. They had not really been able to participate. They went in 87 and 88, but did not win a game. So this huge sporting event had really grown and they were just forced to watch. So in 06, they were able to participate and. And really enjoyed it.
Favorite player of the Mark Turgeon era. Bob, who would you be?
[00:47:05] Speaker C: Oh, that's a tough one.
I really enjoyed a lot of those players.
I think Paul Miller would be certainly right there at the top. PJ Kard, probably one of those two guys. I just like Paul. Paul was such a good person and PJ was such a good person, too. And those would probably be the two that I enjoyed. Matt Breyer was always a go to interview after a game because he understood the game and could break it down. And that's fairly obvious. He's become a top flight assistant coach. So, yeah, a lot of good guys.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Mike, two, would you pick.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Those three would also come up on my list. Not just because of the way they played and then also just the kind of people that they are.
I've maintained, you know, relationships with all of them to some extent, ever since. And PJ in particular, just as I have special moments with PJ when he was still a player.
My wife Debbie was the CEO of the alumni association. And there was a game, I can't remember what game it was now. Might have been this might have been Marshall era, but students waiting outside to get tickets for the game the next day, like on a Friday night, and she had some of her staff over there and it was cold, it was really cold. And there was a kid with no shoes and PJ and a couple of players came out and he saw this kid with no shoes and he took off his shoes that he had on and gave them to him. And I've, you know, recently we had some correspondence about Zion Pipkin. A kid that played for him is here now. And I said something to him about we'll get you a pair of shoes that he remembered. He laughed, you know, and said, but just, just a super person. And Matt and Paul in the same line.
[00:48:57] Speaker A: Yeah, Mark had an ability to really recruit some good, good guys, good basketball players. The Shockers are 2 and 0. They play Northern Iowa at 6:30pm On Thursday, a fitting opponent for Mark Turgeon. Knight, Bob Lutz and Mike Kennedy. Thank you for for sharing your memories of the Mark Turgeon era.
Hi, this is Rick Miuma, president of Wichita State University.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: Check out the latest episode of the Forward Together podcast. Each episode I sit down with different guests from Shocker Nation to celebrate the vision and mission of Wichita State University. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Thank you for listening to the Roundhouse podcast courtesy of Wichita State University Strategic Communications. We encourage you to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more roundhouse
[email protected] Bradshaw into Wingate. Wingate's going to dribble it a couple of times and throws it in the hands of Kuznard. Threw it away. Kuznard to Ryan Martin for the dunk. The Shockers are going to the Sweet 16. It's all over. The shocker's up 7, 3 seconds, 2 jumper by Smith is no good. Wichita State to the sweet 16.
