[00:00:15] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Roundhouse podcast with Paul Solentrop of Wichita State University strategic communications. Thanks for your time listening to the Shockers. We are back on the nostalgia tour today. Our guests are Mike Kennedy, voice of the Shockers and Bob Lutes. Bob is host of Bob and Jeff on sports radio, KFH, and former columnist for the Wichita Eagle. They're going to join us for a look at the 2013 2014 Shockers. Ten years later, in July, we did a 2013 Final Four podcast. Mike and Bob insisted that we meet again to discuss the next season, one that is perhaps equally memorable and equally significant. To refresh your memories real quick. 20, 13, 14. Shockers earned a number one seed in the NCAA tournament. They were 34, and at that point, number two ranking in the AP poll, they finished 35 and 118 and O in the Missouri Valley Conference. So, Mike and Bob, do you consider this season a smashing success or a painful missed opportunity? Mike, I'll let you take first swing at that.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Oh, I think smashing success.
Given that they lost in the second round of the tournament, I guess you could see it as a lost opportunity. But Kentucky was way underseated with the talent they had.
We'll get to it, I'm sure, later in the discussion, but I still say that's the best college basketball game that I've ever been a witness to or directly associated with. And so to, to go out on a loss like that, it's hardly a failure in my mind.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Fabulous Kentucky game, I'll remind you, in St. Louis, Kentucky won 78 76 in the second round of the NCAA tournament. Bob, how do you regard that season?
[00:01:53] Speaker C: I would agree with Mike, except I would throw in that it was painfully, I'm sure painfully disappointing to the team to lose that game because they had that game. They could have easily won that game. And then, who knows what? I mean? This team, to me, was capable of winning a championship. They were that good. So while it was a historically good season, it ended in disappointment, especially for those players. I'm sure if you got them all together, they're still kind of stinging from that defeat because they had that game. It was in their grass.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: I would agree. Big success.
And my regret from that season is that we just didn't get to see that team play more of those high stakes games. I don't know how much further they could have gone. They could have gone all the way to the Final Four, but it would have been a lot of fun to see them pushed and tested and responding against other really good teams like they did in that, you know, the thing.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: That sticks with me about that night, as you mentioned, the game was in St. Louis. We drove up there and so drove home that night after the game. And the entire drive, I just kept thinking to myself, this is just weird. This doesn't make any sense. They lose one game all season and it's over. Now all of a sudden it's over. And of course, logically, the NCAA is a one and done. That's the way it's always going to end. But for that to be your one loss all season, it just felt like there should be some kind of do over or second chance to extend it.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: And to follow up a Final Four season with a season like this, that just doesn't happen. That doesn't happen even at the blue bloods, really. So historically, those two seasons, this is a statement of the obvious. They go down as two of the greatest seasons that any college basketball team's ever had.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: No doubt, is this season a good lesson in valuing enjoying the regular season, the grind from November to the end of February, and not putting too much weight on March?
[00:04:01] Speaker B: That's a tough question. I mean, I think there has to be some real value placed on that grind of an entire long season. I've always felt like in college conferences, there really should be more respect and significance given to regular season championships as opposed to somebody winning a conference tournament and then going on to the NCAA. But ultimately, that's what you're playing for. What happens at the end?
[00:04:29] Speaker C: What grind are you talking about? They absolutely ran through the Missouri Valley conference that year. In fact, in my opinion, that started the real talk about, okay, the time has come to start looking at options if they're out there, because the Missouri Valley conference has shown that it can't keep up. And over the next three years, including that year, 18 and the Valley, they went 68 and four in conference games over those four seasons. And that led to Wichita State finding a new home in the american.
So the grind of that season. Yes, I'm being facetious, it's a grind whether you have big success or not. But that season, to me, started to spell the chips, started to fall for Wichita State to leave the.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, good point. My thought would be that March is very important. Tournament is what you play for, but you can get a lot more enjoyment out of it or you're cheating yourself if you're not paying attention and maybe jumping on board in December, January and February. And I would advise people, I think, to have a greater appreciation for those accomplishments, especially in a round robin conference, regular season. I think that's pretty meaningful in a general sense.
You both covered a lot of shocker basketball together. You've seen almost all the ups and downs going back to the 1960s. Put that season into perspective. What did it mean for Wichita State basketball? Bob, you can go first on that.
[00:06:09] Speaker C: Well, it was just fun.
I remember we were doing a radio show, and we were out here at Coke arena and Greg Marshall was a guest, and they were coming off a final four, and I looked at their schedule and I kind of jokingly said to Greg Marshall, you're not going to lose a game this season. And of course, he bristled at that and mocked me and did all the things you'd expect him to do. But I didn't say that to be ridiculous. I said that because I thought it was within the realm of possibility. I figured they would go unbeaten through the Missouri Valley conference. It was a matter of how they would do in their non conference games. I didn't see they played in a tournament that provided some challenges, but I thought it was a real possibility before the season even started. Crazy as that sounds, and I know it sounds crazy, that did sound crazy.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: I will remember in five, six you called that team being an NCAA tournament capable, winning team before I did, before almost anybody did. And then you also threw out the unbeaten well before anybody else did, too. So you nailed those two. Bob. Mike, put this season into perspective.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Well, no way I saw that coming just because of the way a college baseball or basketball season ebbs and flows to see anybody go undefeated. But I think Bob touched on it earlier. I think what it really was was validation of the Wichita state program as a high level national program. I mean, they had been to a final four the year before and had most of the key pieces back, but they were 16 in the preseason poll. It wasn't like they jumped into the top five or something, and the run to the sweets or to the final four had been a little bit of a surprise, given the way they'd finished the season going into the tournament. So to kind of show, well, it wasn't a fluke. This is a high level national program, I think is certainly what that season.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Accomplished in that way. It would remind me of baseball after winning it in 89, going back 91, 92, 93, just kind of stacking those kind of accomplishments.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: And I want to say to me, one of the most significant things I remember from that season was the very beginning of practice, that 1314 year.
Greg Marshall had told me really early in his tenure here, one of his beliefs, one of his principles, the way he phrased it. Somebody else, I think, had given him the expression. But he said, you have to repay the price of success every year. And coming off of that final four, those practices from the beginning, there was a very strong tone set. He was out there in the middle of things, as much or more involved than he'd ever been in practice, kind of setting that tone that we've got to go back. What happened last year is over. It has no bearing on this. We have to go back and do the work to have the kind of success we want to have.
[00:09:13] Speaker C: And I think he realized that he had a window here. He had Fred Van Vliet, Ron Baker and Cle Anthony early Cle Anthony for the last time in this season. And I think coming off a final four, it was obvious, even though they were ranked, in my opinion, too low in the preseason, with this level of returnees, I think you realized that this team was capable of doing special things. And that's another reason, I think that while it was an incredibly successful season, that defeat was jarring to the team. I don't know about the fan base I'm talking about to the team.
It really hurt them to remind people.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Of the 13 final four team. He did lose some important contributors, and most notably Carl hall and Malcolm Armstead. So there was a lot coming back for 1314, but there were also definitely some roles that needed to be filled. All right, here's my first trivia question. I know Bob has been studying, studying, studying. In which game did Takale cotton score all 19 of his points in the second half?
[00:10:22] Speaker C: Well, Mike will have it.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: I don't know that, actually.
[00:10:27] Speaker C: I thought you were going to say in which game did he have a stunerous baseline dunk?
[00:10:31] Speaker A: We'll answer that question. That's a good one.
[00:10:33] Speaker C: That was at Illinois State.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: At Illinois State, yes. One of his famous dunks.
[00:10:38] Speaker C: I would say that maybe the game at Missouri State. I don't know.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Tennessee downtown, 70 to 61 win for the Shockers. That made him ten and o. That was one of Takale's finest games. All 19 of his points in the second half and was a game they needed. His contribution, I think when I went back and read some of the stories, Ron Baker had a sprained ankle, so he was much needed and stepped up against a very good team.
What did it mean professionally to chronicle that team, Mike? Play by play voice. What was that experience like for you?
[00:11:11] Speaker B: It got to be just more and more amazing. The fact that they remained undefeated and there were a couple of scares along the way, one I'm sure we'll talk about. But it just continued to add up. And then, of course, what I remember is that nationally there was a lot of kind of disdain about, well, yeah, they're undefeated, but who have they really played, that kind of thing. And I'll never forget seeing it was just off the cuff interview. Charles Barkley was going somewhere. He was walking along the street, maybe going from the studio to his car, whatever it was, and somebody stuck a camera in his face asking him about Wichita State, and he said, they're undefeated, aren't they? Yeah, but they're undefeated. They haven't lost a game. Is that right? And the guy kept kind of budding. He just kept saying, they're undefeated. Think about know, I really appreciated that, that somebody kind of understood the significance.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Of it can always count on Charles Markley. Bob, you were calling this for the professionally.
[00:12:11] Speaker C: That was the year I got invited to be on ESPN and all this stuff because the national media was very curious. I believe you can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the year the whole Gottlieb stuff sprang up where Doug Gottlieb took a shot at Fred Van Vliet as a good college player, but that was about it and kind of underplayed his value. And I answered that in a column and he got wind of it and it turned into the Hatfield and the court.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: That was the St. Louis they played at St. Louis. They were down a point at halftime in that game, came back and won. But that was the game where he. I'm not sure he even credited him with being a very good college player.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah, he did the tv for that game, and I think based his opinion off seeing them. And Fred did struggle a bit and the shockers did struggle a bit before coming back. But, yeah, he certainly did not give Fred credit for the length and breadth of his career. That was an interesting game in St.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: Louis, was a tough one. They didn't play well at all.
Not every game in this 35 and stretch was a thing of beauty.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah, the game you mentioned with Tennessee, they were down a point at the half, doubted interest. So, yeah, Takale's second half was huge in that comeback.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Mike hinted at it, so we'll get right to it. One of the most memorable regular season games, I think, of any era, certainly of the Marshall era, 72 69 overtime win at Missouri State. Shockers were down by 19 points with 1148 to play. Mike, memories of that game?
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I looked it up. They were down 18 at the half. And immediately when the second half started, they started coming back and I didn't find for sure what they cut it to, but it was back to a manageable deficit. And you thought, well, here they come, they're going to be fine. And then it got back to 19 with 1148 to go. And at that point you're thinking, I just don't know how they're going to do this. One of the stats I looked because I remember they started turning them over. They outscored Missouri State 18 to five on points off turnovers in that game. And that was really the key to the comeback.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Started pressing, started getting to the free throw line. Yeah, quite the comeback, Bob. I was seconds away from writing them off on Twitter late in that game. I did not. I held back. I was glad. What were your memories of that game?
[00:14:37] Speaker C: Well, it was only the fourth conference game of the year, so it was pretty early in the season and nobody had really, I mean, they were undefeated and that was cool and it was mentioned, but it hadn't gotten to the gargantuan story that it became. And that crowd was fired. Mean, Missouri State wanted to be the team that ended this nonsense of Wichita State being undefeated. And it was loud. And for Wichita State to come back in that game against a good team in a raucous atmosphere, I can't remember even how long that building had been open at that time. Not very long. So that was an impressive showing. And I think they used that game to even take it to a new height. I think after they won that game, all bets were off. They weren't going to lose.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: I think from all of our experiences covering college athletics, that's the kind of game where you're having that kind of season that suddenly that feeling develops that we're just going to win everything. We're going to find a way to win every game we're in, no matter what we're facing.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: I think one of the things that Greg Marshall said at halftime or at some point during the game was, all right, you guys, everybody is watching the score crawl across on ESPN and they're all rooting against you guys.
They're all rooting for the upset. That was one of the things that kind of kept that team going, motivated them. Describe that team. Describe the 2013 14 shockers. What made them go?
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Mike? Well, first, I want to admit I thought you'd probably go here next. There was the play at the end of regulation, and if you bring it up in Springfield, you will get a lot of bitter response because Fred drove the lane, there was contact, kind of flipped the ball up underhanded, went in and got the and one to send it to overtime. And everybody with Missouri State was convinced it was a know one of those could go either way, block charge calls. And obviously they don't even get to overtime without that call.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that was a huge play. I think Fred himself has said he wasn't sure of whether it was a block or a charge. And I've talked to a Missouri State student who was on the baseline there and yeah, you are exactly right. That was a controversial call. Okay, that team, Bob, what made them go? What was their identity?
[00:16:52] Speaker C: Well, they had a really good team, obviously, and they had really good players, and they avoided any real significant injuries to their frontline guys.
They played the minutes. They were on the floor. And again, as we talked about last time, I personally don't believe Cle Anthony early gets his historical due for what he meant to this program.
He was the leading scorer. He became the first player in the martial era to average more than 15 points per game this season, averaging 16.4. And then you had Baker and van Vliet and cotton. They all did what they did. I mean, they were obviously phenomenal basketball players. You didn't have a real deep team, but you had the mainstays playing the bulk of the minutes. And there was nobody, certainly in the Missouri Valley conference who could match that talent level.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Three NBA players on that team, which always helps. We had the Clee anthony early retired jersey discussion in the summer. We don't need to go back over that. I think we're all in agreement. Clee was consensus All American that season, WSU's first since Xavier McDaniel. He was on the final four team. Only shocker to ever have that honor. Fred Van Vliet was an all american player of the year in the valley, and Ron Baker, all american honors and all MVC. So, Mike, how do you describe that group?
[00:18:22] Speaker B: Well, just looking at the stat sheet, the thing that kind of stands out, Greg Marshall's team has always played great defense and rebounded. They out rebounded their opponents by about seven and a half a game, held them to 39%. They got to the free throw line significantly more often. So all those things that go into doing the little things, the things that win for you, rebounding defense, free throw shooting, a win for you on the road, they just didn't beat themselves. The turnovers were very much significantly in their favor. So it was just a really solid team that did the little things to help you win.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Is it fair to say 2012 13? The final four team was an ensemble and this team was star driven.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Maybe to some degree. Yeah, I think so.
[00:19:10] Speaker C: Yeah. You definitely had stars here and there were four of them. And then after that it was a bunch of guys filling roles.
So I think this top four on this team certainly drove the bus.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: Certainly. Takea Cotton, a great defensive player, two time defensive player of the year in the Missouri Valley.
[00:19:34] Speaker C: Some might be tempted to leave him off of that and say they had a great top three. No, I'm talking about not us.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: I know, but if you just looked.
[00:19:43] Speaker C: At things and you'd say, well, I mean, early van Vliet, Baker, NBA guys, my goodness. But Ko Cotton was as important as.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Any of them and he had a really good offensive year that year. I'm not sure I remember that he shot 37% from three point range.
Takale, obviously a fabulous part of those teams. That leads me perfectly into my next trivia question. So WSU center rotation, Darius Carter, Shadrak Lufeel and Kadim Colby, who started the most games out of that group?
[00:20:17] Speaker B: I cheated. I looked. I would have guessed anyway, though. Kadim.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Kadim Colby.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: I know.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Kadim Colby started 19 games.
When did you begin to think this team was capable of something special?
[00:20:29] Speaker C: Before the year.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: Before the year. Bob, sticking with that, Mike, what was the first clue for you?
[00:20:34] Speaker B: I think maybe for me it was after that Missouri State win. I thought, okay, if they can pull out a win like this, they're capable about anything. Because you looked at the conference schedule, you knew then that they had a chance to maybe, if not go undefeated, certainly not lose more than a game or two the rest of the way in the conference.
[00:20:54] Speaker C: And that sounded like, well, I have all the answers, which is unusual for me to sound that way, usually so humble.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: I think that's what we would have said.
[00:21:05] Speaker C: Yes, but it was just obvious. I thought it was obvious that if you have early Baker, Van Fleet and cotton, you've certainly got two or three legs up on every other team in the conference. There was nobody in the conference who could match that talent. So this, to me, just seemed like this was going to be the Shockers year. Not that the previous year hadn't been. They went to the final four, for crying out loud, but this team, in my opinion, was a better team than the final four team. I think you put this team and the 63 64 team, as in my thinking, the two best shocker teams of all time.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Another team which had a highly disappointing finish in the same way in the tournament.
[00:21:56] Speaker C: Now, that one was brutal. Losing the case at home. Yes.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: I think from outside in October, you may have wanted to know, how did the Shockers replace Carl Hall's minutes at center power forward? He was such a force in there. They did that with Darius Carter. It was new that year, Shadrach and Kadim Colby. And then the other question, not inside the program certainly was, who's going to be the point guard or not? Who was going to be the point guard? But was Fred capable as a sophomore of leading this team? And internally there was absolute confidence.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Well, he got better and better his freshman year, showed a lot of promise, but shouldn't ever be overlooked how significant Malcolm Armstead was to that 13 team in the run to the final four. And so certainly I wasn't ready to speculate that there wouldn't be some drop off at that position as Fred continued to learn and get better. And there really wasn't. I mean, from the time that season started, he really kind of stepped up and did all the things you needed a standout point guard to do.
[00:22:59] Speaker C: 193 assists, 48 turnovers.
Pretty impressive.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Fred's ability to not turn the ball over was one of his greatest characteristics, definitely. And something that Greg Marshall's teams did. He just did not put up with turnovers. We may have gone over this again, but I will ask about a key win of the season, and I wanted to put in a plug for that St. Louis team. Very good team. Shockers turned the ball over 18 times. They trailed by ten in the first half, seven with six minutes and 40 seconds to play, and then they won 70 to 65. And I guess I'll use that. The question did the Shockers play anybody that year? St. Louis went on and won the Atlantic ten. They won an NCAA game. They beat Alabama, they beat BYU, and they beat Tennessee, which advanced to the Elite Eight. So the non conference schedule, perhaps in retrospect stronger than it may have looked at the time, is there another big win, another game from that season that you see is important?
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Mike, you mentioned Alabama. I went back and looks, I remember that being a close game. They were down three with 645 to go in that game. So that was certainly a difficult road win against a very talented team. So at the time, that's still so early in the season. That was ten or eleven games in. You don't look at how big that is to the end picture, but I think looking back, certainly that was a big beating.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: Tennessee on a neutral floor and then going to Alabama, winning back to back games against those two teams in the SEC, if we all went back, that's probably a point where they really got people's attention, being able to do that.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: And one thing that hasn't changed, I mean, that's ten years ago. But SEC talent is SEC talent. So that was certainly a test, as you said, back to back two games early in the year that really tested them against some really high level talent.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Okay, another trivia question. True or false, this team won 17 games by 20 or more points, the most of any shocker team.
[00:25:03] Speaker C: True.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: I'd have to say true. False.
[00:25:06] Speaker C: Trick question.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: 20, 16, 17 team. Kind of interesting. I would not have predicted that either. Yeah. They also won more games by 30 plus than this team. Wow.
[00:25:16] Speaker C: Most of them in the valley.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Most of them in the valley last.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Season in the valley.
[00:25:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: That would feed into Bob's crusade to get the Shockers out of the Missouri Valley Conference. So in contrast, 2013 this season went largely smoothly. There were some tough games, there were some ankle tweaks, things like that, but there were not significant injuries, there weren't slumps, there weren't losing streaks. Did that dominance make this team less interesting, less compelling to either of you?
[00:25:45] Speaker B: No.
[00:25:48] Speaker C: I wouldn't say less interesting because I've never covered a team that was 20 and 25 and 30 and the momentum just kept building. And then you got to that Kentucky game and you're thinking, okay, they're playing a blue blood, an eight seed.
We suspected that Kentucky might have been undervalued at the time, but watching them play, it was obvious that they were undervalued. And so to get that opportunity, and you said it perfectly earlier, Paul, you felt a little bit robbed that you didn't get to carry on a little bit longer with this team and it's unbeaten streak. It would have been amazing to go into the Sweet 16 with a 36 and record and you're looking at the possibility of 40. And for crying out loud, now this one held everyone's attention very well. So one of the big stories, even in the midst of games against Drake.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: Poor Drake. Always got to get our shots in at Drake. And the valley did present some. It was not a great season for the valley. There's no covering that up. Indiana State challenged the shockers. I think Loyola hinted at what they were going to become. They gave the Shockers a little bit of a challenge. Of course, there was the Missouri state game, but Creighton was gone. They had left after the 2013 season for the Big east. That's also a huge regret. Those matchups would have been quite interesting in Omaha and Wichita. I will always regret not getting to see those two. Who do you regard as Wichita state's biggest rival in the valley after Creighton left?
[00:27:29] Speaker B: I think from an emotion standpoint and the fact that they were usually pretty good. Well, I'd say one of two, either Missouri State, because that's always been kind of a rivalry. They were close and they were pretty good. Illinois State at that particular time had become one because of the incident at the end of the 2013 game up there in normal. So that had, I think the coach was still the same. So that had some carryover feel to it. The following year.
[00:27:58] Speaker C: I think you'd have to mention Northern Iowa.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:28:01] Speaker C: Because they had some big games with them. Northern Iowa is kind of the one school that didn't really flinch. They liked playing the shockers and they beat Wichita. Of those four losses that they had over those four, not, you'd probably know this or Mike, but I would think one or two of them happened against Northern Iowa. I know they lost up in Cedar Falls in a game we almost, afterwards.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: On the drive home, almost lost our scary, scary moment. Yeah, I would agree. Illinois State probably tops my list, but Northern Iowa would be right there. They were here for the game day game. They had some excellent seasons, won some NCAA tournament games, nationally ranked. So those two kind of stepped up and filled that rivalry void to a certain degree.
Favorite player. Who did you enjoy talking to? Telling his story.
We went over a lot of this 2013 final 14 probably hasn't changed, but I'll give you another chance. Bob. Who did you enjoy?
[00:29:01] Speaker C: Well, part of our job as print journalists was to try to get people to talk interestingly, and Fred van Vliet never failed. He was a go to. He could analyze a game better than, as well as any player that I've ever dealt with. And I cherish the opportunity to talk to Fred Van Vliet about basketball. I would imagine the beat riders for the Houston Rockets feel the same way today because he just is so knowledgeable and so articulate and everything you want. So he was my favorite player to cover on that team. Not that the others weren't great as well, but nobody like Fred.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. Fred had a great way of explaining it. It reminded me of a couple of my other favorites. Aaron Schaefer, pitcher on the baseball team, had just a great way of explaining the game.
Current shocker Mauricio Milan, a catcher. He had just a good rapport, a good intelligence, and a good way of talking about it. Mike, who did you enjoy being around?
[00:30:03] Speaker B: I'd have to echo what Bob said, and again, that's not to downgrade any of the others, but the first time we interviewed Fred after a game his freshman year, Dave and I just kind of looked at each other and went, holy cow, this guy sounds freshman. Sounded like a 35 year old assistant coach or something. And as Bob said, he never failed to be that way. And to look at things could be self deprecating when he didn't think he played well. I mean, very, very realistic about everything and just unusual maturity. Chris Jans told me that, the same kind of thing he said when scouts were talking to him when Fred was a senior, one of the things he said was, I've never seen anybody like him. He said the game's slow for him. He sees things before anybody else does. And he said, it's like having a 30 some year old assistant coach out there on the floor.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: A lot of good guys on that team, and it was nice. We had access. You got to know them. And Fred, Ron, Clee, they were all generous with their time and I feel like they were good to talk to, said interesting things and I think the fans benefited. You got a sense of this team and what was going on.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: When you ask about the strength of the team or the character of it earlier, when you look at guys like Fred and Ron and Takeael and Evan Wessel and how well they got along and how they all kind of had a common way of. Common viewpoint way of looking at things, I think that really helped hold those teams together, and certainly some of that was an expectation from the top. But when you have guys like that who embody the kinds of principles you want in a team, it really helps solidify everything.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Another quick trivia question, which Evansville guard scored 31 and 26 points versus Sean Valentine? Bingo Bob nailed that one. He did do some studying. Greg Marshall, why was he the coach who could handle this spotlight and the pressure of the long winning streak? What was it about him that put him in this place and he did such a good job?
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Well, I think he did have a good understanding of not ever taking things for granted or assuming anything because you'd had success. There was always that consistent message of, we've still got to get better. We haven't done anything yet. We've got to keep working at it. You can't let anything slide. And I think that's a big part of keeping something going, understanding that more than ever people are going to be coming after you, trying to be the one that ends this streak.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:33] Speaker C: He was a relentless coach, so he made sure that nobody felt comfortable, nobody felt like they had achieved. They were always striving to do that next thing, and this was a perfect group of guys to carry that message because they felt the same way. Fred van Bleet wasn't going to let anybody rest on their laurels.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Yeah. You had some excellent leaders with Fred and Ron Baker. And I think Takale Cotton was, as Greg hire, one of the assistant coaches would say, was an everyday guy. A lot of guys that showed up and worked hard every day, and their influence was definitely felt. I think what I will remember about Greg over this kind of. This arc of these two or three seasons was just his way with words. And in this season, he became known for taking a number. We're 20 on o. Here's what 20 means or here's what 21 means. And he would bring up, I think, the aircraft production in World War II here in Wichita. He just had all these ways of kind of shifting the conversation and making it interesting and giving the team, I think, a goal in a different kind of way. So, he know, going back to the final four really flourished in the spotlight, I think.
Where do we rank this team among Wichita State's best, Bob?
[00:33:55] Speaker C: Well, I mentioned it earlier. I think it's top two. I think 63 64 would probably still get my vote for number one because it included Dave Starworth. That is echelon.
But I think this would. I would rank it, too. Be curious to see what Mike thinks.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: I can't argue with that. It'd be right there. One and one a or one and two, whatever. I think those are the two, certainly. And again, you look at what was accomplished over the whole season, I'd probably have to throw the 80 81 team up in there in the conversation at the least. Top three?
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Yeah, those three teams from those.
[00:34:35] Speaker C: Unusual that neither final four team. For a school that doesn't make a habit of going to the final four, it's unusual that neither of those teams made our top two. That doesn't mean they weren't great teams. It just means that I believe, and I think Mike concurs and I believe maybe you do, that the 63 64 team was so good and I think could have won a championship, and the same with this team.
I just think they stand above the 13.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: Final four team kind of came into its own right at the end. Part of that was because guys had been hurt. Ron Baker was hurt all year and then rejoined the team. So that was significant. The 64 65 team was kind of the opposite. I mean, they lose Stalwarth and Bowman at the semester and managed to hold on, play together and then part of it. Back then, regionals were strictly regional and they got a pretty good draw in terms of who they had to play to get to the final four. And it was less of a step than you had to win two games. So I think that played into it also. It was a really good team. But once those two guys were gone, I don't know that you could even talk about that team in the same breath with some these others.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: I will remind people about the 63, 64 team that went 23 and six was Wichita State's first valley champion. And since only the champions went to the NCAA tournament, it was Wichita State's first jump into the NCAA tournament. Lost Ernie Moore to a weird eligibility thing. He did not play in the NCAA tournament, which was a big deal. Very good player for the Shockers. The Shockers had the NCA tournament here at what was then. Was it either the WU Fieldhouse or Levitt arena back then they defeated Creighton in the first game, lost to Kansas State in the next game. So they were very deserving.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Now, Roger Sutner, that was pre peanut. Roger Sutner had Willie Morell, who was a heck of a, you know, in that K state team, which I saw two or three times in person that year, played above any level I'd ever seen them play in that particular game. And then they went on to Kansas City and almost beat UCLA. That was UCLA's first championship. And K State almost got them. I'm convinced had that shocker team advanced, that might have been a national championship team.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: Another trivia question. Who had Wichita State's highest scoring individual game?
[00:37:05] Speaker C: Cle Anthony early.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: How many?
That was an easy guess. Now we separate 39, 38. Was it 31 versus Kentucky?
[00:37:15] Speaker C: Darn.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: Really? So I thought he had like a 38 or 39 point game against SIU.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: Was that the year before?
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Previous year.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:37:27] Speaker A: Keeping on this theme, you can group Wichita State's kind of peak periods into three season arcs. We had the 63 NIT, which again, for the youngsters, big deal back then, very significant.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Well, and that team was ranked fifth, top five in the final polls. But that was, as you just mentioned, that was the years where only the conference champion went to the NCAA. So they ended up going to the NIT. They beat both Loyola and Cincinnati, the two teams that played for the national championship that year. And it was the one loss I think Loyola had going to the tournament and one of two, maybe, for Cincinnati. Going into the tournament, right?
[00:38:04] Speaker A: So that team, 63 NIT 64 regional final. What we would know as the elite 865 Final Four, they got to as high as number one. That group did over that three season arc, ranked in the top ten quite a bit. Then we had the 81 elite 882, 23 and six ranked as high as number two. The 83 team went 25 and ₩3 the valley with a 17 and one record. And then we had the most recent era. 2013 Final Four. 2014 number one seed 2015 went to the Sweet 16 with wins over Indiana and Kansas. Bob, what's the best three year stretch in shock?
[00:38:40] Speaker C: 60S, hands down. And then the most recent three years and then the 80s stretch. But the mean Mike and I both go back that far. And watching those teams and the talent level and just having Dave stalwarts in a shocker uniform, to me that's a magical three year stretch. Not that the others aren't great as well, but I'd vote for the reason.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: I would agree with that is that back in those years, they played a very difficult non conference schedule. They always played at least a couple of other ranked teams early in the season. And then the valley was arguably the best basketball conference in the.
Yeah. People don't, I guess, totally understand that this much later, but that was a significant accomplishment just to be in that.
[00:39:36] Speaker C: Long ago, 60 years.
[00:39:38] Speaker B: But to be in contention in the valley in those years, you had to be a really good team just to.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: Give people a taste. Yeah. The 63 team beat number two Ohio State here in Wichita, played number one. Cincinnati split with them, defeated number three Loyola. So, yes, it was a different era. There were not 360 NCAA Division one teams. So you did not get a lot.
[00:40:02] Speaker C: Of the matchups against lower level. This is before the big Eight had really taken off. It was still a good conference, but the valley was superior. So these were like KU years.
Hi, this is Rick Muma, president at Wichita State University. Check out the latest episode of the Forward Together podcast. Each episode I sit down with different guests from Shocker nation to celebrate the vision and mission of Wichita State University. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Sa tell people about that I think is really significant. Dave Stalwart scored 47 points against Cincinnati. An upset win broke a long winning streak. They were the defending national champion. Cincinnati that year gave up like 52 points a game per game for the season against everybody, and he had 47 against them all by himself. They led the nation in scoring defense every year back then. So that's the kind of player he was and the kind of accomplishments that they had.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah, looking through the non conference schedules in those days is quite entertaining. Loyola national champion Arizona State, UTEP. Bradley would have been a conference opponent, but NIT champion several of those years. It was a great year for valley basketball. All right, I got one more trivia question and then I'll get your final thoughts to see if we missed anything. So the 2014 team won 35 games in a row. It surpassed the previous mark of 14 wins in a row. Which Shocker team did it surpass?
[00:42:05] Speaker C: 80 81 be my guess.
[00:42:08] Speaker A: Mike.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: I'm going to say 82 80.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: The 53 54 shockers. Cleo Littleton. That was even before Bob. They were 27 and 427 and four on their way to the Nit. And kind of Wichita State's breakthrough into.
[00:42:25] Speaker C: The first team would get some mention, although I can't speak with any authority and Mike can't either about that team, but what a roster.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: It was kind of early in their days into the Missouri Valley, I guess eight or ten years into the Missouri Valley, but, yeah, kind of their first breakthrough. Cleo Littleton, of course, Paul Shearer, very good. Very good team and went to the NIT.
[00:42:49] Speaker C: And I would say that team kind of set the tone for shocker basketball and what it would become because of the star power, because of Ralph Miller, because of success.
[00:43:04] Speaker B: Last second win in Oklahoma State. First time that ever accomplished that.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: Right. Paul Shearer's big shot.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: One of the more important shots in shocker history. Yeah, I don't know all the details. I would imagine the success of that team would have had something to do with the moving from the forum downtown, which I think seeded maybe 4000, building the on campus arena and kind of. Yeah. Elevating this program, no doubt. All right, Bob, what have we missed? Do you have a final thought about 2013?
[00:43:34] Speaker C: It's just good to think about that season and everything that happened and how busy we were and Mike was. And you knew the eyes of the country were on Wichita State basketball and it was just fun. It was fun to be in that sphere of the spotlight and wasn't on us. We're just journalists, but it was on the team we cover. And you always feel like you need to do your best work when that's the case.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Mike, there are a couple of moments that I remember from that season that don't have a whole lot to do with the ultimate success or anything else, but just stood out to me. The second game of the year was Western Kentucky here. And that particular year ESPN had decided to do like an around the clock thing. The first week of the season. And that game tipped off at midnight, or I think technically on the box score, it said 11:59 p.m. But the arena, it was a weeknight and the arena was pretty much full. I don't know that it had all 10,506 filled, but it was almost full. And I remember the reaction is, wow, they're really into basketball there. And you get that many people for a midnight tip off. And then the other moment that I will never forget, it's just one of those things. The Valley championship game was against Indiana State, and Wichita State won. It was 83 69. So late in the game, it's over. It's a foregone conclusion with a little bit of time left. And Indiana State took Jake Odom out of the game, and he was a senior. It was going to be his last game against a valley opponent. And he was a really good player and such a great competitor, and everybody respected him. And as he was walking off the court, Ron Baker kind of walked over behind him, looked up where most of our fans were situated and pointed to him, and our fans gave him a big ovation. And I thought, it's one of the classiest things I've ever seen in all my years of doing this.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: That was a nice moment. Jake Odom was a good player for the Sycamores. I will point out two things. When I went back and listened to the 2013 retrospective podcast, we didn't talk much about the assistant coaches. And I think if there's one thing that my time covering Wichita State has taught me is how important those people can be. That team had a great staff. That was just a great era of assistant coaches, Chris Jans, Steve Forbes and Greg hire. And you cannot look at the success of those teams without thinking about those three.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: And one thing I'll say about Greg Marshall, and the same would be true for Gene Stevenson. A couple of the very best coaches I've ever been around respected their assistant coaches, asked for their input, listened to their, you know, I think Greg could be a little know. Chris Jan says, we need to go to zone here and somebody comes down, hits a three on the first possession, you go, great idea.
But those assistant coaches had input and were important beyond just recruiting or that sort of thing.
[00:46:34] Speaker C: And we've learned that, especially with Jans and Forbes, how great they were because they're having very high success as head coaches now. So, yeah, I loved Jans and Forbes, and they would often come over to talk to us before games and just good guys, as well as being very good coaches.
[00:46:57] Speaker A: They were helpful. Chris Jans especially was helpful to me. He would take the time to explain things and maybe even watch a little video with you. I really enjoyed that group. No doubt. I'll always remember Greg hire for the tennis ball drills before games. He'd have the guys out there playing with tennis balls. Mike, I'm glad you brought up the western Kentucky game. That stood out. As I went back and looked at some of the season. It was midnight and that place was packed and it was quite the statement about shocker basketball. All right, Mike Kennedy and Bob Lutz looking back at 2013 14 Wichita State basketball. Thank you very much for your.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: Thank you for listening to the Roundhouse podcast courtesy of Wichita State University's strategic communications. We encourage you to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more roundhouse
[email protected] it's over.
[00:48:03] Speaker C: It is over, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: Say it slowly and savor it. Wichita State is going to the final.
[00:48:11] Speaker C: Four for the first time in 48 years. Unbelievable. What a scene, folks. The Shocker fans are just going crazy in the sand.
[00:48:22] Speaker B: Just maybe the greatest win in the history of Wichita State basketball.
