Speaker 1 00:00:12 Bob Powers and Robert Lighton are the co-authors of the Life and Times of Dave the RAs Stalworth. Dave Stallworth played for Wichita State, 1961 to 65. He earned consensus All American Honors in 64 and 65. The New York Knicks picked him third in the 1965 draft, and he won an NBA title in 1970. With the Knicks, he is regarded as the greatest shocker and the player most responsible for turning the program into a passion for fans and lifting it to the top levels of college basketball. Bob Powers was a teammate of Starwars with the Shockers and a member of the 1965 Final Four. Team Litten grew up in McPherson and Wichita as a shocker fan, watching those great teams of the early 1960s. All royalties from the book will be donated to the WSU Foundation for the David Stallworth Memorial Scholarship. So let's start, let's get, let's do the business first. How do people buy this book?
Speaker 3 00:01:13 So I'll answer that. Um, they can buy on amazon.com, uh, and they can either get it, I think, in Kindle form or get, uh, an actual book.
Speaker 1 00:01:24 Thank you, Robert. All right. Uh, tell us about this book. Why did it need to be written?
Speaker 2 00:01:32 Well, it's been in my gut for 50 years, and, uh, I wanted to, I wanted to put something out for the public to enjoy as much as we enjoyed those days.
Speaker 1 00:01:51 Uh, Mr. Litton, tell us your perspective on that. Why did this book need to be written? Had to be a labor of love for both of you.
Speaker 3 00:01:57 It certainly is a labor of love. Cause we're not making a penny off of it. All the money's going to the scholarship, and that actually is one of the reasons to have it written so that, um, we can, uh, donate the proceeds to the scholarship, uh, call more attention to the scholarship fund, um, increase the amount that's in the fund so that, uh, there'll be more students, uh, who will be able to benefit from the, uh, from the legacy that, that, that, that Dave gave all of us. Um, and also from my perspective as a, as a fan, um, he was, uh, he was one of my first heroes when I was a teenager. Um, uh, and the connection between Bob Powers and I was established, um, by my having attended the incredible, probably the greatest shocker game in history, where Cincinnati was our opponent, shockers, uh, beat them, upset them. They were then number ranked, uh, ranked number one. This was in February of 1963, and it's one of the few games I ever saw in person. Uh, and I was on the floor. And, um, I will never forget the game the rest of my life. And we'll, maybe we'll talk later about how that game led to a connection between the two Bobs and writing the book.
Speaker 1 00:03:03 So, shocker, basketball has, uh, had a lot of boom periods. The sixties is one that we will talk about today. We're also in the, you know, in, in another boom period over the last 20, 25 years. It's been enormously popular. So people are gonna, listening to this podcast, hopefully will be familiar with Tre Murray and Ron Baker and Fred Van Fleet and that generation. What's the appeal to the younger Shocker fan to someone who maybe came on board in 2006 or 2016? Why should they read this book? What will they get out of it? Mr. Powers, I'll give you first, first cut at that.
Speaker 2 00:03:42 Well, I'd rather hear what Bob has to say.
Speaker 3 00:03:45 So, um, I think, uh, a lot of young fans will learn why Wichita State became a national power and why it was that the Fred Band Bleach and the Ron Bakers tore Murray, and not just them, um, the X Man, you know, um, uh, the, uh, Antoine Carr, cliff Levingston, all the great shockers that came, they came because Wichita State was a ba, was a, was a household name of basketball. And the, and the, and the person most responsible for making that happen was, Dave, so and so. I think, um, I think, uh, any fan that's interested in the history of the shockers and wants to know how it was that Wichita State became what it is, has to read this boat.
Speaker 4 00:04:41 Hi, this is Rick Nema, president of Wichita State University. Check out the latest episode of the Forward Together podcast. Each episode, I sit down with different guests from Shocker Nation to celebrate the vision and mission of Wichita State University. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 00:05:10 So, Mr. Powers, you've got younger children, you've got grandchildren, uh, I'm sure they will read this book. What are you hoping they will get out of it?
Speaker 2 00:05:18 Well, at least they'll know. The old man had a little bit of brains in his head. I, uh, I wrote the book, really for the public in Wichita. I, I believe, as I did when we started the statue, that there are more people in Wichita that love Dave Stalworth, and they are there, and they are giving, they put the statue up in almost less than a year. And this book, I believe, as soon as it can get, we can get the word out. I believe this book is gonna sell like crazy because it, it is a day to day description of Dave Stallworth for a very short period of time. But it was well researched, and we feel, Bob and I feel very good about the time we put into figuring all this stuff out.
Speaker 1 00:06:17 I'm glad you mentioned the statue, because during the process of, uh, of fundraising and designing and organizing, both of you were, were, uh, were, were really involved with, with getting that put outside the arena. You were clear that it wasn't just Dave's, uh, appeal wasn't just about his basketball skills. He was a, you know, he returned to Wichita. He worked in Wichita, lived in Wichita, raised a family in Wichita. Describe his importance, aside from his basketball skills.
Speaker 3 00:06:48 So, one of the things that struck me, um, because I didn't, I didn't really know him. I got to meet him at the 50th anniversary party, which is, uh, how I met Bob. Cause I saw an item in the Eagle that, Paul, you may have written the, the piece actually <laugh>. And, uh, um, but in the course of researching it, I got to know, uh, Dave's, uh, wife, uh, Gloria, who it turns out was in my high school class, but didn't realize it. Her maiden name was Gloria Jones
Speaker 1 00:07:17 And Wichita, I
Speaker 3 00:07:18 Learned about,
Speaker 1 00:07:19 Huh? At Wichita? Southeast.
Speaker 3 00:07:21 Yeah. Southeast, yeah. And, um, there are a lot of coincidence in the book, when people read it, it turns out that the captain of the team was Dave Leach. Um, he was, uh, the basketball coach at Southeast, and I was a basketball manager for Dave Leach. And we got to actually reunite 50 years later through a second dinner that Bob Powers organized. But to get to the point, back to your point about the thing about Dave, the thing that I learned most about Dave is that despite his basketball, well, to two things, one is he came back and we'll talk about this maybe from, uh, what was then thought to be a heart attack in his second year in the nba. And we describe it as, uh, not in our words, but it was described as one of the greatest comebacks in sports history. I mean, it just gives you goosebumps just reading about when the, when the readers read about exactly what happened, um, and then, and then see what happened.
Speaker 3 00:08:10 Um, it, it just has to give you goosebumps. But the second thing is, aside from this incredible tenacity at Fortitude, is that despite his greatness, et cetera, he was a very humble guy. You know, he, um, uh, he, uh, and, and, and was very placid, uh, very, um, he took life in stride. He never was bitter about the fact that his career was cut short by his heart attack or near heart attack. Uh, I mean, he's a man who we can all look up to as saying, you know, I mean, we all have hurdles in life and all obstacles in life. Dave had some big obstacles and he overcame them, and he never expressed any bitters to better, and that's a lesson that all of us can learn.
Speaker 1 00:08:54 So, Mr. Powers your view of, of Dave away from basketball, what made him such an important figure?
Speaker 2 00:09:02 Well, he's such a kind and gentle human being. And, uh, like my friend Melvin Reed and I have discussed many times, and Melvin has said, Dave has what he calls an even personality. Neither one of us have ever seen him get upset, and not on the floor, not on the street. And, uh, one of the, one of the things that I think about Dave, is how he, why, and how he chose Wichita for his final home. You know, that guy traveled all over the world. He, he could have lived anywhere he wanted to, especially in the United States. And there were towns where he was a huge hero. But he chose Wichita. He chose Wichita, not because of Wichita, but because of how he felt in Wichita. He, he felt welcome. He felt like he could get something done here in Wichita and make a living. And that gave, that gave him Gloria an opportunity to meet out at Boeing and spend the next, what, about 25, 36 years together. Yeah, so he, he, he was just a, a kind man,
Speaker 3 00:10:34 But he had funds to him. We talk about, um, in the book, um, there's a, there's a side of Dave Star that people did not see. Um, and maybe even Bob Powers didn't see when he was a teammate, but we found out by talking to some of his other teammates, that he had a, uh, a hija side of, uh, of his si of his personality. Um, he was not just a basketball player. Um, he was a, he was a regular guy. And also, the other thing that really jumped out from our, from our research, he was the ultimate team basketball player. Um, it was drilled into him when he was a high school player from, uh, Dallas, south Dallas. Uh, his coach then drilled in Team First mentality, and he had a team first mentality throughout his entire career. Despite his ability to go off on any nine, he could score 30 or 40 points that they wanna do. But he played as a team player.
Speaker 2 00:11:21 You know,
Speaker 1 00:11:21 Mr. Powers in the book, you reference having a great seat to watch Dave Stallworth. Oh, uh, Des describe his basketball skills.
Speaker 2 00:11:29 Well, I've said in a few places that, uh, you, you didn't want to get Dave upset out on the floor because if you got him, if you personally got his attention, he would just clean your clock. He could do anything he wanted with the basketball. And one of the things that I remember, uh, from one of our reunions, I remember Dave Leach at the end, he was given the opportunity to say some things about our team. And one of the things he said about Dave, which was verified by Coach Henson, the way he treated his team in high school, Dave said, Dave Leach said it's, if you needed help with the man, you guarding, Dave was there. If Dave had a shot, a clean shot, but you had a better shot, you would get the ball. So Dave Leach said that, and, you know, I didn't pay much attention to it until we started doing some research down at, uh, that his high school in Madison High School in Dallas, Texas, he, he was taught not to be a star.
Speaker 2 00:12:46 His coach wouldn't let him, if, if he started getting close to 20 points, his, his coach would bench bench. It's like Wilbur Williams said. Uh, who was the point guard, uh, with Dave, uh, on the 60 19 60 Madison, uh, championship team? Wilbur said Dave would not, Dave was, we were treated like a team in high school. Coach Henson wouldn't let any of us outscore or outdo anything. We were a team. We dressed like a team, we acted like a team, and he treated us like a team. And Dave that was drilled into those kids. And Dave carried that throughout his professional career. I, I never saw anything like it. He, he just was like, Melvin said, he, he, his temperament was even, and it never changed.
Speaker 1 00:13:45 So in Dave's time, uh, shocker basketball hit another level, getting to the NCAA tournament, winning Missouri Valley Conference championships, attendance basically doubled. What was it like seeing shocker basketball go from something that it was important in the community? Certainly Ralph Miller and Cleo Littleton and that group in the fifties elevated it. But boy, that those groups in the early sixties just really made it an even bigger deal. What was it like being a part of that and watching shocker basketball turn into a real, a real fervor around town?
Speaker 2 00:14:17 Well, I, I remember my first view of the stadium. Lanny took me in to the round, and we stood there in the round and looked out at the court, and I couldn't believe how big that court was. I said, coach, I don't know if I can run that floor. He said, Bob, your high school gym is the exact same size as this court. And I said, well, it does not look like a coach, and I'm not sure about all this. And so we went, we went on and, uh, got down the road and it, it all came together.
Speaker 3 00:14:59 One of the interesting things about the history that we uncovered, we went back and read Ralph Miller's biography. Uh, we went to a lot of sources, but one of the interesting stories, it's in Miller biography, is when they built Henry Love Arena, which was the original name before it became Coke Arena, from the renovations that Charles Koch contributed, um, when it was Henry Love Arena, there was a lot of criticism, um, or a lot of fear that when they were building a 10,000 plus arena, that they wouldn't be able to fill it because the shockers were not drawn. You know, you know, even in the forum, they were not always fall. And, uh, you know, uh, at the time, Miller said that they could have expanded the, the, the, um, the 11 arena to, you know, something like 17 or 18,000. They could have put an extra tier on it.
Speaker 3 00:15:49 Um, and it wouldn't have cost all that much. I think the, I mean, the arena originally cost like a million and a half dollars, and for an extra couple hundred thousand, they could have put, you know, another seven or 8,000 people. And in retrospect, they should have because, um, uh, they, they would've easily filled it up in the Stallworth era. And frankly, you know, if you built an 18,000 foot, you know, 18,000 person stadium, it's conceivable that shocker history would've been different in the years after Solar. It's conceivable they would've attracted even bigger name players. Uh, we'll never know. But I think it's sort of an interesting story that, um, that Miller, you know, was, was criticized. And yet, um, during those years, it became the, it became the house that they built. And that was sort of a phrase that everybody knew. And just as a, as an individual, you know, as a kid growing up, my parents were not into sports. So I, I rarely ever got a ticket to sports. But I will tell you, getting a shocker ticket was the hottest thing in town. Alright. I mean, everyone wanted to go a shocker.
Speaker 1 00:16:49 So to continue the, the history lesson before the on campus arena, the on-campus Field House, Wichita State played most of its games or many of its games downtown at the Forum. They also played some at Henry. And, uh, my understanding is they probably about more than doubled it when they moved to the, uh, to the on campus arena. Uh, what were the, the, the atmosphere, the circumstances that those early sixties teams, and there were a lot of great names, uh, gene Wiley Stallworth, Ernie Moore, Nate Bowman, what was it about those teams and, and that time in college basketball that, that helped the shockers mushroom into, into such a, a fan passion?
Speaker 2 00:17:29 Well, I think Ralph Miller was the driving force in all of that. He, he was a, uh, he <laugh>, he was a real task master. And as, as you'll hear from a number of players, uh, in the book, uh, he made us all toe the line. So I, I attribute all that started when Ralph took over as, as the head coach. And I, I didn't like him leaving, but, but he had to go and, and, uh, he had, he had a choice to make and he made it. And so we, we were left with Dave and Nate, and we got as far as we could go based on the time they had left to play
Speaker 1 00:18:17 Ralph Miller left for the University of Iowa after the 1964 season. Just to provide the background. Uh, so Mr. Powers, you talked about, Dave is a encore teammate, unselfish, and he indeed, uh, he led the shockers and assists one of his seasons. So great score, great passer. Uh, describe him as a teammate, maybe off the court. What was he like in the, uh, in the, in the locker room on the, on the trips around the Missouri Valley conference and around the nation?
Speaker 2 00:18:45 Okay, so that, that's a very good question. And, uh, I just, uh, put a CD out of the conversation between Melvin Reed Knights about, uh, 50 minutes, and I've got plenty of them. And I, I, I'm passing a bunch out to the foundation and to the basketball office. Are you in the basketball office? Uh, Paul,
Speaker 1 00:19:08 I'm in the arena, but not the basketball office.
Speaker 2 00:19:10 Yes. So I'll make sure that you get one. But anyway, my point, Melvin and I talked about the fact that no one saw Dave anywhere, except in practice and at the games we can't, no matter, it doesn't matter who you were, he was a very private individual and we didn't see him anywhere except on the floor. And that's about all I can say about that. I don't, we don't know anybody that can tell us anything about his private life.
Speaker 1 00:19:51 Uh, Mr. Litton, uh, growing up as a Shocker fan, uh, describe watching Stalworth as a, as a youngster. I'm imagining that, you know, when you're at that age, boy, your sports heroes are, are very important to you.
Speaker 3 00:20:04 Uh, yeah, so I had, I grew up with two sports heroes, bill Russell and Dave Stalworth. I mean, I got introduced to basketball because, you know, um, in the late fifties, all you could watch were the Celtics of the Hawks. And, um, I became a, you know, big advocate or big, big fan of Bill Russell. And then when Star Worth got to Wichita, I mean, you know, there weren't that many shocker games were on tv, so I had to listen by radio. But the few games I saw him on tv, it was just, you know, I mean, you could just shake your head watching it. And then, as I said, seeing him in person for that, that game. I will never forget my life, um, that 46 point game where, uh, where they beat Cincinnati. I mean, it's just, it's just harder to describe. He was as close to, I mean, in, in his peak years, uh, he was as close to Dr.
Speaker 3 00:20:49 J as, you know, as anybody. But he had, he had Dr. J's, not only his, his, you know, incredible shot making ability, but Dave could shoot outside. So in a three point World, Dave's scoring average, which was something like 24 Points a game would've been over 30 today. Um, uh, because he was, he was, he could, he could hit it from anywhere. Um, totally versatile player. And the more amazing thing when we talk about in the book and we do a blow by blow, when he got to the nba, um, his most famous game was the fifth game of the 1970s series against the mix. And he personally, Gar Will Chamberlain in the last quarter, um, and was responsible for the Nicks getting to the seventh game, this famous Willis Reed game where Willis Reed was limping out in the court. The Knicks would've never had a seventh game, they would've never had a championship if it hadn't been for Stal war personally to Feeding Chamberlain. And we describe how that happened. It's one of the more amazing things he gave up. He gave up six inches to, to, to Chamberlain and yet totally outplayed it in the last quarter. And, and, and they won that fifth game and eventually the, the, uh, the championship,
Speaker 1 00:21:55 Yes, that would be part of the famous, the Willis Reed injury Arc and storyline as well known. And, and Dave Stallworth, uh, and Nate Bowman, I would imagine played, uh, important roles in, in that, in that part of the story. Uh, the rivalry with Cincinnati, uh, it's been renewed here in recent years, but that was a big deal in the, uh, in the sixties. Why describe the rivalry with the Bear Cats in those days?
Speaker 3 00:22:19 Well, I can start, I mean, um, we had some incredible games against Cincinnati. Gotta understand Cincinnati cuz you asked the previous question about, you know, why was basketball such a big deal in Wichita? A large part is because it was in the Missouri Valley conference, and at that time, the Missouri Valley was, if not the best, certainly among the best conferences in college basketball. They were also one of the few conferences that recruited, but black players. And that was a major reason Wichita got Dave Sor. Um, and, um, uh, Cincinnati of course became nationally prominent when Oscar Robertson was on the team, but they never won a national championship with the Big O. They won it after the Big O and they won it in 1961 and 1962, they almost won it in 1963, the year that we beat them. Uh, but they lost in the, in overtime game, one of the most famous games against Loyola Chicago when Jerry Hartness beat them. But, um, uh, the, the rivalry was intense. I mean, um, the year before the 63 game in 62, Lanny Van Emon, who was then the guard for Wichita in his last year, beat Cincinnati on Cincinnati's core, um, by one point with a last second shot. Um, and so then Star War beat him again, the following, you know, whatever year it was after Cincinnati and won 37 straight games. Um, and so the rivalry was incredibly intense, but in large part, because Cincinnati was so, so good,
Speaker 1 00:23:47 Mr. Powers as a, as a player. What, what do you remember about the Bear Cats in those meetings?
Speaker 2 00:23:53 You know, like I told Melvin on our interview, I don't remember. And, and that's a, that's the truth. Uh, there's some things that are very clear in my mind, but, but not that,
Speaker 1 00:24:09 Was there a,
Speaker 2 00:24:10 I'm almost 80 years old, so I gotta right to that.
Speaker 1 00:24:13 I know, I'm, I'm, I'm pushing you to go way, way back in the memory banks. I, I, I understand that. Is there a stalworth memory or a stalworth anecdote or story that the two of you unearthed during the process of, of writing this book that really stands out as interesting or significant?
Speaker 3 00:24:33 Okay, I'll throw you one. And by the way, I want to tell you how, uh, we found out a lot of information, not only from interviewing teammates, but um, we were greatly enabled, uh, uh, to do the research by going to newspapers.com, which is a website that is an archive for all the newspapers in the United States going back into the fifties and sixties. And we could not have done the book because I mean, I'm 72 and even though Bob's got eight years on me, I couldn't remember all these games. But by going back and we, we got Blue by blows by going back to the newspapers. So we got a lot of stories. But one personal story I got, I'm just gonna, I'm, I hate to give away the story, but it's so darn good. There was a famous sprinter, uh, back in the sixties who played football for Arizona State named Henry Carr.
Speaker 3 00:25:21 Henry Carr, uh, won an Olympic medal to give you an idea of how fast he was in two 20, well, we talk about Dave's sports, uh, versatility. He was good in any sport that he did, but he was basically goed into running the two 20 when Henry Carr visited Wichita, uh, when Carr was a football player at Arizona State. And Wichita was still playing football and in his tennis shoes without any training. Dave Stallworth went down to the track, um, uh, you know, in what is now Cecil Stadium, and he, uh, he ran 20, he ran a 22, 2 20 in his tennis shoes with no training at a time when the world record was in the high twenties, like 20 point, you know, 7.8. And Henry Carr was among the fastest people in the world. And, uh, that to me just, you know, gives you the goosebumps. Um, Stallworth was an incredible athlete.
Speaker 1 00:26:21 I read that story, that did stand out to me in the, uh, in the book, Mr. Powers. How about you? Was there a, uh, is there a Stallworth anecdote from the book that that really captured your attention?
Speaker 2 00:26:31 There's a stalworth antidote that I didn't see because it happened in the huddle, but I was sitting there, uh, I don't remember what game it was. Dave, Dave Stallworth tells this story himself. They were, they were, uh, seven points down or six points down with, I don't know, 30 seconds left on the clock. And Ralph calls time out and they come into the, into the huddle and Ralph looks at him and says, right fellas, we got 'em right where we want 'em. And Dave tells that story a lot. I think he even tells it on one of the, one of the, uh, tapes that we had. But Dave would, Dave would take those kinds of things to heart, and we won that game.
Speaker 3 00:27:25 That was the 63 game against its matter,
Speaker 2 00:27:27 Was it? Yep. Okay. Well, he loves telling that story, and I love
Speaker 3 00:27:34 He hit the final two free throws and, and they won by one point, and then they, and then they stadium and then they, and then the fans carried him off the stadium, and I was one of those little kids on the floor in the middle of that mala, when Stallworth is on somebody's shoulders, I'll never forget it.
Speaker 2 00:27:48 And there's, there's one other thing that, you know, in this interview I had with Melvin, brought back a lot of memories, some of which I couldn't grab a hold of, but he, he talked about, we, Melvin was telling me about when we, when we played them in Cincinnati and the standing ovations that Stallworth would get in other arenas. And Melvin says, Melvin says to me, says Bob and those standing ovations were before the game started. And, and, and that's the deal. I mean, no matter where he went, he was, he was a hero.
Speaker 1 00:28:34 That was an excellent way to wrap up. Gentlemen, I appreciate your time very much. Uh, one more time, tell people how they can get the book. We are of course coming up on Christmas time, so if you have a shocker fan out there that might appreciate learning the history of the program and the history of, uh, of the band whose statue they pass every time they come into the arena, how can people get the life and times of Dave the rave, stalworth?
Speaker 3 00:28:57 Just go to amazon.com and buy it either in Kindle or in or in hard copy.
Speaker 1 00:29:02 All right. Well thank you very much. I appreciate your work on the book and I appreciate your time today.
Speaker 2 00:29:07 Thanks, Paul.
Speaker 3 00:29:08 Thank you so much Paul.
Speaker 5 00:29:21 Thank you for listening to the Roundhouse podcast. Courtesy of Wichita State University's strategic communications. We encourage you to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more roundhouse
[email protected]. Brad Shaw into Wingate Win Gate's. Gonna dribble it a couple of times and throws
Speaker 6 00:29:40 It in, in the hands of Kusar. Drew it away, KUSAR to Ryan Martin, all up.
