Speaker 1 00:00:12 Hello, welcome to the roundhouse podcast. This is Paul Soro of Wichita state university, strategic communications. Thank you for listening. Kevin Saul is the director of athletics at Wichita state. He is busy preparing for the start of school after he was hired in June. Kevin has been busy touring. He's been meeting people. He was at the volleyball banquet. The other night, uh, has been diving into the university and the athletic department. And now he's getting the word out on name, image, and likeness, and that is what we're here to discuss today. So, Kevin, I think many people are aware of the NCAA's name, image and likeness policies that's changed recently. They know it's an important part of the landscape, but it's also something that's complex and it's been changing over the last year or so. So let's start with a, a definition. What would you say, how do you get people kind of started understanding, learning about the ni L
Speaker 2 00:01:03 Well, Paul, it's a pleasure to be on your show and I, I really appreciate the, uh, the opportunity and, and certainly have listened to many, uh, prior to this show and you do a great job. So thank you for all that you do name, image. Likeness is, uh, something that came on the scene in July of 2021. So relatively young and, and in terms of its impact to athletics, but over the last year, it has changed and morphed our industry, um, to a great extent, the best way that I can describe. And I know we'll get into the weeds a little bit. Um, the best way that I can describe ni and an elevator speech is that it's an element of, um, financial aid for student athletes. So Paul, you know, I was a student athlete, Olympic sports student athlete 25 years ago. And the elements of a scholarship have, have always been room board books, tuition and fees.
Speaker 2 00:01:57 In the last six years, the NCAA has allowed institutions to pay above and beyond room board books, tuition and fees in the form of cost of attendance. And most recently is Austin educational awards. And we may not get into cost of attendance and Austin awards, but those seven really are elements of a scholarship in today's day and age. Um, those seven are binded together with some commonalities in such a way that the universities we can fundraise, we can solicit funds and we can direct those funds accordingly, uh, provided that we are staying compliant with OCR and title IX regulations and all the things that, uh, that, that we are regulated by. I would call ni L the eighth element of a scholarship. And what makes it unique is that the universities, um, are not to solicit those funds to fundraise and direct. Um, those funds to a student athlete it's purely market driven.
Speaker 2 00:02:57 Paul. So, um, as I was a student athlete, if I had a classmate that was, um, a marvelous piano player, and she was a, a major in, in the school of fine arts. And she had the ability to go down to a restaurant and play for a couple hours on a Friday night and make a couple hundred dollars. She could do that. Um, and in, in that time period in my, my time, you couldn't do that as a student athlete. And that's really what ni L is. It's the ability for student athletes to commercialize, um, a talent of theirs outside of their, their athletic, um, technical skills and abilities. It is an opportunity for student athletes to leverage their name, right, their image, or their likeness that could be a Jersey number or something to that effect, that points specifically to that player, um, as, um, sponsorship and, and advertising leverage in a free market, a commercial free market. And so it is market driven. Um, it is an opportunity for student athletes to make some additional income above and beyond those seven elements, um, and very important to, to what we do.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 So I think most fans, their first question, or one of their first questions would be well, what does this mean for the shockers and what does Witchita state's role in the ni L how do you explain that what's Wichita state's role in helping its athletes get involved
Speaker 2 00:04:23 In this? Well, I think first and foremost, it is a recognition of the importance of ni L in the recruitment and retention, uh, Mo most importantly, retention of elite, uh, level student athletes. Um, and so first and foremost is that recognition. Second is a, a wave of education, whether that's education in the community education with our student athletes on what ni L is, what it, isn't, how you can get involved. Um, that piece is the responsibility of athletics to communicate very well in the community. And that's why I appreciate being on your show. Um, this time we're spending together as an effort to do that among many other things. Once you get past the education, I think we have to provide the infrastructure. And so, um, what I'm sure we will talk about a little bit is the, the two or three pathways that exist for individuals in the community to get involved in ni L Paul.
Speaker 2 00:05:16 I think it's important to understand that for, um, athletic departments have been educating donors that, um, it is impermissible, it's not permissible. Uh, it is not within the rules, um, to, to fund student athletes or provide funds for student athletes, athletes through these means we've been doing that for decades, and now all of a sudden those rules have changed. And so I think, uh, in, in many cases, uh, donors and supporters are a little bit hesitant, uh, in terms of how to engage, where to engage, because for decades, we've been telling them them, they can't engage. And so the education piece is really important. And then identifying, uh, the two or three pathways that exist at Wichita state for how you can get engaged in a permissible manner.
Speaker 1 00:06:05 So you mentioned the pathways, let's jump into that. That's what people are gonna be hearing a lot about over the next week or so, uh, armchair strategies collective. That will be the first one. We'll talk about, describe that for us.
Speaker 2 00:06:17 Well, armchair strategies collective is really particularly useful for individuals that are interested in ni L in the community who might not have a specific initiative or application for that, that ni L in mind. So lemme give you an example. Uh, we had individuals in the community this summer that were interested in helping out our men's basketball program from a name, image, likeness perspective, and they reached out to armchair strategies and armchair strategies put together an opportunity at river Fest, uh, for our, our guys to, um, gather underneath the tent and provide autographs. And that, that provided, um, dollars to our student athletes. And that was an idea that was generated through armchair strategies from external interest. Um, armchair strategies is, is a group, uh, Matt batty, timber, uh, Lee, and, um, Tyler Weber. Um, those guys, uh, met with them two or three times just to kind of talk through their, uh, support.
Speaker 2 00:07:16 They've been incredibly supportive of Wichita state athletics, and they want Wichita state athletics to succeed. Um, obviously looking for our support, which they have. Um, we are, we are United in that support. Um, so armchair strategies again is a, is a great pathway for individuals that, uh, are interested in getting involved at ni L, but you might not have a specific initiative or application that you're looking for. Um, their website's easy to find it's www.armchairstrategies.com and, um, Tyler Weber, timber Lee are, are two primary contacts shockers themselves. So they have, uh, vested interest in our programs and they want our student athletes to be successful. And I think they've been very supportive. Um, again, it's just a community collective, uh, founded by former shocker student athletes to create an avenue for our student athletes, to partner with businesses and organizations in the community.
Speaker 1 00:08:10 Yes, Tyler and Tim were both former baseball players. So if those names are, are familiar to fans out there, that's probably why open doors marketplace would be another pathway. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 00:08:22 Well, there's two primary, two or three primary companies that athletics departments are contracting with. So again, this is a relationship between the athletic department and a third party that will help you provide an additional pathway for, uh, name, image, likeness activities, open doors, and influencer are two companies that, uh, that are very prevalent in the space. Uh, Wichita state has contracted with open doors. And what open doors does is creates a marketplace, um, again as a third party where, um, community members that are interested in ni, um, can engage with student athletes directly, right? So you go on the, um, the open doors marketplace, which will be connected through our website. Our primary website for all ni L activity will be go shockers.com/ni L name, image, likeness. Um, and so you would go onto the marketplace and you'll see all of the rosters of our student athletes.
Speaker 2 00:09:24 And what's unique about open doors that might be a separator from armchair is that it's useful for individuals that are interested in an ni L and they have specific needs that they'd like to get a student athlete involved with. So let's just say we had a, um, a, um, automobile, um, sales business here locally in the community, and they wanted a student athlete to come down, do an autograph session at the car dealership. Um, they could go into the open doors marketplace, find the specific student athlete that they would like to target for that, and actually propose an idea online virtually to that student athlete, our student athlete would receive a notification on their text, uh, on their phone, excuse me, via text or, or the notifications where they could review the specifics of the proposal and accept or reject. Um, if they'd like, what's beautiful about both armchair and open doors is that those parties will make sure that two things happen.
Speaker 2 00:10:28 Number one, that we protect the integrity of the student athlete and their eligibility, and that we protect the integrity of the institution. So what does that mean? It means that, um, each of those pathways will warehouse the records, uh, the agreements, because as, uh, an NCAA institution, we have an obligation to produce those records. If we're asked, um, each of those entities will assist student athletes, if they'd like on the tax liabilities associated with, um, with that income. And then there's just the organizational component of funneling those requests through those organizations to be, uh, most impactful for our student athletes. So, uh, open doors is a, again, a great opportunity for individuals that are interested in AAL that have specific ideas on how they would want to apply a student athlete in an area of their business. It could be Paul, anything from an autograph session.
Speaker 2 00:11:24 It could be an appearance at a banquet. Um, it could be some sort of a, a clinic in the community. Um, those are all permissible ways to do that. And, um, open doors has been fantastic in that. Um, they will track all those transactions for us and, and, um, kind of educate us on history as institutions. Now, if we're sitting down with a recruit in their families, we can't guarantee N I L activity. What we can do though is summarize, uh, historical data. So as we get further into these relationships and we get the data from armchair, uh, and from open doors, we can communicate that data. Um, so that student athletes understand what that market looks like, uh, when they come to Wichita.
Speaker 1 00:12:10 So you mentioned tax liability, which is one of the kind of interesting aspects I've heard, talked about. This is a real, I guess, both an opportunity and a responsibility for these student athletes to learn some business savvy, to learn how to look at a contract and agreement to think about those kind of things. That is a, that's a part of this,
Speaker 2 00:12:28 Correct. There's no doubt about it. I think there, you know, student athletes have the ability to retain, um, an advisor, if you will, specifically related to ni L activities. And I think that's a good thing. Somebody that can read, uh, contracts and agreements to make sure that they're not, uh, being placed in, in bad spots. Um, both open doors and armchair will, along with athletics, uh, will educate student athletes on tax liability. What that is. Uh, so in a simple example is we're telling our student athletes, if you're gonna go make a hundred dollars on an IL opportunity, you need to hold back 33 of those dollars for, um, when, when the taxes come due. And in April, um, the armchair actually allows student athletes to opt in, um, to have those dollars withheld from the payment. Um, so that, that tax liability then would be remitted back to the student athlete right before tax time. Um, so it's a combination of education and then putting the infrastructure in place so that our student athletes are educated on that. But again, it's another opportunity for them to prepare for the real world in terms of us all paying our taxes and what that looks like. And I think there's a valuable educational component to that
Speaker 1 00:13:47 Third pathway direct connection with the student athlete.
Speaker 2 00:13:50 Yeah, this is always gonna be an opportunity for folks in the community to have a, a, a direct connection with a student athlete to, um, to engage in ni L activities. I think what's really important for all of our listeners and supporters to understand is there's a few non-negotiables when it comes to ni L activities first and foremost, um, it, it can't be a recruiting inducement. So, um, whether it's a booster or an institutional representative sitting down with a prospective student athlete, a recruit and their parents, we can't, uh, tell them that you're gonna be guaranteed. This, if you come to Wichita state, uh, it cannot be a pay for play situation where we're saying, Hey, you're gonna get these opportunities. If you garner the top five most minutes, um, on the basketball team, or, uh, the most home runs on the softball team. It can't be stat driven as a quid pro quo, uh, from that perspective.
Speaker 2 00:14:51 Um, and so those two pieces are, are very, very important. And I would say the last one, that's a non-negotiable there actually has to be a service rendered. In other words, name, image, likeness is meant for that individual that can go play the piano at, at, at a, at a restaurant there's a service provided there that they're being paid for. Um, if a student athlete does an autograph session at a car dealership, there's a service being provided there that they can be compensated for what it can't be is compensation without that service provided. And so that's what all of those agreements, um, will document when you do it through armchair and open doors. Um, the onus of producing those documents rests with the student athlete, if there's a direct connection with the student athlete, right? Because you don't have the infrastructure of armchair and open doors to support that the tax liabilities are strictly on the student athlete when you have a direct connection.
Speaker 2 00:15:51 So while it, it is a pathway that exists, and we want to be transparent with all pathways that exist, uh, we would encourage folks to work with open doors and armchair because it will aid our student athletes with the tax liability, because it will warehouse and document all the agreements to ensure services are rendered that protects the student athlete's eligibility. It protects the institution. And I think Paul, one thing we need to talk about certainly been a part of my conversations is in the community is there's a service fee associated with routing NL activities through armchair and open doors. And those service fees are because armchair and open doors are rendering services themselves. They're warehousing agreements, they're documenting agreements to make sure that we're covering the student athletes, uh, protecting their eligibility in the, in the institutions integrity, they're managing the tax liability components, right?
Speaker 2 00:16:48 So if you and I are gonna go do our taxes down at H and R block or some other third party, not only are we gonna have our taxes processed, and hopefully we don't owe, uh, maybe we're getting a little bit of a refund, but you're gonna pay that, uh, H and R block or third party, because they're rendering a services to do your taxes, arm, chair, and open doors are really no different. And, uh, so there's certainly is a fee associated with that. What you might see in open doors, if you wanted to do a a hundred dollars, um, autograph session or appearance with a student athlete, you might see that that, that total charge is $108 and 53 cents. Um, well that additional, um, you know, five to 15%, whatever it is, um, is really for their services that are rendered, they have expenses on their side.
Speaker 1 00:17:35 Sure. So when you mentioned the services rendered, I think about Sidney McKinney, the shortstop on the softball team, she seems like an excellent example. Uh, she's an artist, uh, she does tennis shoes. She endorses some coffee brands. She's big into coffee, and those are the kind of things that you're talking about. You know, Sydney will be, uh, you know, mention the coffee brand on social media. That's a service rendered. Am I understanding those kind of things?
Speaker 2 00:17:58 Correct? Right. Absolutely. And so there's another example of a specific idea or initiative that somebody might have again, you would route that through open doors, um, and you would pitch to a student athlete, Hey, we'd like to do, we'd like you to do four mentions a month of our product on your social media, because they might see, Hey, Sidney McKinney is an influencer on social media. She's got 10,000 followers on, on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok and Facebook, Hey, we want, we want to get our product in front of your followers. That's an idea that could be pitched through open doors. Um, certainly. And, um, so I think it also gets back to the educational aspect of student athletes, building a, um, a brand, uh, on online and, uh, through social media. And certainly we spend a lot of time talking about brand management and awareness and, um, digital resumes with student athletes being careful about what you put out there. Sidney's a perfect example of somebody that has care, taken that brand in such a way that now there's value to it.
Speaker 1 00:19:04 What are the guidelines or the rules about wearing Wichita state gear? How does that factor into
Speaker 2 00:19:11 This? That's a great question. And I think that's one where, um, folks can kind of get hung up on the details. I, I would think about it like this. Um, we have a, an agreement with play fly sports, um, who has our, our multimedia rights. So they sell print radio, TV ads, um, and basically what play fly does the agreement is that we allow them use of institutional marks. Woo. Um, the flying w um, other institutional marks and businesses want to align with those brands, right? Because there's value in those brands and they pay to align with those brands. And so that's all part of your multimedia rights as we get into our student athletes entering a commercial space. So, and I would define commercial in this conversation as a for-profit space, then the student athletes will either work through a, a business that is already has an agreement with play fly for use of the marks, or the student athletes may apply for use of the marks because they're using it in a commercial business format.
Speaker 2 00:20:21 If we didn't, uh, pursue that in a commercial setting with our student athletes. And I think we would devalue our sponsorship program, um, on the other hand, on the other side. So I'll give you an example. If student athlete wants to produce, uh, apparel t-shirts with, with woo or any of our institutional marks, they would work through CLC in the licensing to become a licensed vendor, to be able to use those marks again, when they're using it in a commercial setting. Okay. Um, if a student athlete wanted to, um, promote or, uh, get into an ni deal and wear the institutional marks, they'll either work with, um, a current sponsor or they'll go through the process with play fly, to become a sponsor and use those ed those marks. Um, and so again, it gets a little bit tricky. I think the, the clear line of distinction is student athletes have always been able to represent Wichita state competitively, uh, in the community.
Speaker 2 00:21:23 They wear their uniforms, they wear warm up gear, um, social media. Now, when you enter into a commercial for-profit space as a student athlete, we gotta make sure that we route it through trademark licensing and our multimedia rights partners, so that we don't, um, um, impact the integrity of the sponsorship, um, and multimedia rights program, because if we impact that, that brings a lot of revenue to our department, right. And that revenue ultimately is being invested into our student athletes anyway, and their, their annual operating and how we travel and how we feed and recruit and those sort of things. So we gotta make sure we protect that side as well.
Speaker 1 00:22:00 How much time do you spend, uh, benchmarking comparing? And I'm asking this, like, there was news about SMU and it's ni L maybe a couple weeks ago that I've heard some from fans. How much do you do comparing Wichita state to other schools? And is that helpful at this point?
Speaker 2 00:22:15 Well, I think as a, as a, an institutional staff member, you're certainly going to pay attention to that data, uh, so that you understand what the market and a competitive landscape looks like. You know, I think you have to be cautious, um, in terms of, of reading too much into that, um, you know, the story that you're referring to as SMU came out, I think it was last week or the week prior that, that each one of their student athletes in football and men's basketball. If I, if I'm correct was gonna be guaranteed $36,000, well, you're starting to get into, uh, inducement you're promising things before folks get there again, it's a market driven, um, initiative, uh, that really isn't to occur prior to student athletes, um, getting there. So promising that on the front end is probably not something we're gonna do at Wichita state.
Speaker 2 00:23:11 Um, you know, one thing that complicates the matters, I think a little bit Paul is, is, um, there are 28 states that have ni L laws. Kansas is not one of 'em. Um, and so we could take a very liberal approach to it, or we could align ourselves with our other region's peers, which is kind of what we've done and, and make sure that we're protected in that way. Um, we, I, I think the better way to, to attack it as opposed to comparing ourselves to a competitive peer is to work really, really hard in coordination with open doors and armchair strategies to build something here at Wichita state. And then we can communicate factual data, historical data on what we've done, um, and go from there. And I think that's a better spot for us to position our institution.
Speaker 1 00:23:57 So you've had to, I'm imagining educate yourself a lot over the last year and a half or two was, was some of this building though, maybe 3, 4, 5 years down the road where you were able to begin building a storehouse of, you know, information. This may become a part of college athletics at some point I need to be, you know, comfortable in this, this kind of area.
Speaker 2 00:24:21 Yes, I think so. I, I would tell you, you know, back in 2010, I'm at the university of Kentucky and I had my first opportunity to be a sport administrator just a day to day administrator over a particular sport, supporting a sport. And that was men's soccer. And I remember the first two or three weeks of pre-season that first year we had a young man on the team that was, um, had a phenomenal talent for cutting hair, um, designing different just artwork, uh, in terms of, of, of that. Um, and he would do it on campus for other student athletes. He would, he would, it was fairly well known and he got into a spot where he wanted to promote that on Twitter. And, um, as, as you would, as a co entrepreneurial college student, and we had to shut that down and have a, a conversation with him.
Speaker 2 00:25:17 And I think that to me again, 12 years ago is when it, when it first became real to me that, you know, what something doesn't feel right about, um, an individual that's working hard at a craft outside of athletics that doesn't have the ability to, to build a little bit of something there. And so, um, I think over that time, as you've seen the conversation evolve in, in, um, in the athletics industry, that you, you certainly talk with other ADSS in your leagues and, and you can kind of tell where this thing is going. I think it's a, at the end of the day, it's a good thing. Um, it's intended for our student athletes to be able to earn some money and, and, and do it in a permissible way now, competition recruiting and all those things have twisted it to where you're, you're hearing and seeing a lot about inducements, uh, in our enterprise, in our industry. And we've gotta make sure that we're staying above all that as an institution and, and executing ni L in the way that it is intended to be done. And so I'm not gonna worry about other institutions. I'm gonna make sure that we're positioned in a very competitive spot Wichita state so that we can again, retain elite student athletes, um, and maximize as much as we can within the rules, the NL.
Speaker 1 00:26:38 So you've been out over the last, uh, I guess now month plus meeting with a lot of shocker fans at, uh, at various places. What kind of impressions have you gotten from soccer fans here as your, as you're getting started in your new job?
Speaker 2 00:26:50 Well, it's been, it's been a really good five weeks. Um, we've met with almost every member of our staff here internally one on one, and I've spent about an hour, maybe a little over an hour with each one of our head coaches doing a deep dive, um, audit in our programs and understanding where we're positioned. Um, but then we've done lunches and dinners for solid five weeks and just met some unbelievable folks. And, um, I, I am very appreciative for how wo warm and welcoming everybody has been to our arrival here at Wichita state. And, you know, Paul, I grew up in Manhattan, Kansas. So Wichita state's been on my radar since I was a junior high, uh, kid watching the college world series on ESPN in the late eighties and early nineties. And, and certainly understand from that perspective, um, the impact that Wichita state has had on the collegiate athletics industry and, you know, a 23 year career in college athletics is, is I watch the institutions from my home state and, uh, keep up with them.
Speaker 2 00:27:52 So it's been, it's been very, uh, rewarding to meet a lot of those supporters and donors and season ticket holders that fuel that success over the last many decades. Uh, we crossed path with Wichita state. Why was it the university of Kentucky and basketball? And we've seen, um, we've seen success in every single one of our programs here, um, at various eras, right? It's not lost on me that, uh, Wichita state was a dominant force in the Missouri valley conference. And 1516, we won nine Missouri valley conference championships. And just outside your office, there's commissioners cups stacked on top of commissioners cups. Well, we've entered a, a, a much more competitive environment in the AAC, a more expensive environment in the AAC. And, um, we certainly will rise to meet those challenges. And I think we've got a great family to do that with,
Speaker 1 00:28:44 You mentioned your time at Kentucky, I'm thinking there's an opportunity for a, uh, 10 year reunion game from that 2014 NCAA tournament game. Do you have any pull in that area where we can maybe meet in Kansas city or, or St. Louis? Again?
Speaker 2 00:28:57 I like it. I like it. I think we could probably make that, that happen. You know, one of my, my very special, uh, mentors and friends in this business is Mitch Barnhart and just owe the, everything that we are professionally and a lot of who we are, uh, personally to him. And, uh, I'm sure we could twist an arm here or there. We just have to figure out the right time and place. And, uh, that would be an intriguing match up for
Speaker 1 00:29:20 Sure. Makes sense to me, Kevin, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.
Speaker 2 00:29:23 All right, Paul, thank you so much for having us on the sh on your show and go shockers.
Speaker 3 00:29:37 Hi, this is Rick NEMA president at Wichita state university. Check out the latest episode of the forward together podcast. Each episode, I sit down with different guests from shocker nation to celebrate the vision and mission of Wichita state university. Listen, wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 1 00:30:05 Thank you for listening to the roundhouse podcast, courtesy of Wichita state university's strategic communications. We appreciate your time. We encourage you to rate reviews, subscribe wherever you get your podcast, such as on iTunes or Google plate, you can find more roundhouse
[email protected]. Thank you for listening,
Speaker 4 00:30:27 And they let him pass it up court. And then he gets picked off along three by Pango. No good. One second. It's over. It is over and Wichita state pass beaten the number one team in the nation to go to the sweet 16. Go crazy with Utah. I know you are.
