[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome to the Roundhouse Podcast with Paul Sullentrop of Wichita State University Strategic Communications. As always, thanks very much for your time. We really appreciate you listening. Our guest today is former Wichita State basketball player Sasha Radunovich. He played for the shockers from 1985 to and while his basketball career at Wichita State certainly noteworthy, his success in the business world may be even more interesting. We will talk about both of those areas with Sasha. I'll tell you a little bit about him before we get started. He was a 6 foot 10 center, averaged 12.2 points and 5.9 rebounds for his career.
Earned all Missouri Valley conference honors in 1988 after averaging 14.1 points and 7.2 rebounds. Sasha ranks 15th in Shocker history, both with 1463 points and 710 rebounds. And it's a pretty select list of former Shockers who are in the top 15 of both. Sasha played for Gene Smithson as a freshman the remainder of his career with coach Eddie Fogler. He is originally from Podgorica. Did I pronounce that correctly? I worked on that a lot.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: That was a bad start.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Bad start.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: It's Podgorica.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Podgorica.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Hi Paul, thank you for inviting me so much.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: You bet. That is the capital of Montenegro. He played professionally until retiring in 2000.
He is the co founder and COO of Black Sheep Homes which is a UK based construction company specializing in large panel timber frame construction.
His description of me was I make walls in factories, transport the walls and assemble them like Legos. I would direct you to the company website to really get an idea of the scope and the beauty of some of these buildings.
Sasha, thank you so much for your time. Let's start by describing how does someone from what was then Yugoslavia come to Kansas to play basketball for Wichita State?
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Well, actually before you ask this question, I wanted to start this explanation because actually it's really, really funny how it happened.
So in those times, it was 1984, 1985, I played in Yugoslavia and I played for the whole national teams of Yugoslavia and there was no money involved then in basketball. And that, then that first year, it was the first time I wasn't invited to play for a national team. So I was thinking, well listen, I mean what am I going to do if I don't play for national team? I might as well study something. But in those times there were not that many people really playing from Europe in United States. It would just happen on very, very random occasions. And then I was thinking, well, my father had two PhDs, my mother is a lawyer. So I should make my family proud. So at least I should get a university degree. And then that year, my last year playing in Yugoslavia, I played with. On the same team with Jargo Jiri, who actually came from Wichita State to play with me. So I asked Jarko to. To help me out, to help me out, to try to somehow make it happen for me to go play for Wichita State.
So what he did, he invited Gene Smithson because then even the videos were not available. I mean, everything was so difficult. So Gene, he actually traveled to Yugoslavia and he came to Belgrade. We met on the airport, we went driving around, we bought a basketball in some store. We found a field somewhere in town, you know, in between this skyscrapers. We went out on the field, he passed me the ball, I made a jump shot. And he said, okay, that's enough. You got a scholarship, let's go.
So that's how I finished at Wichita State in Wichita.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Okay, so that was a fast scouting process for.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It took five seconds to Jim, you know, to see something and shocker.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Fans will remember the name Zarko Zurcic. He played for Wichita State, as you said, also from that part of Europe and is now works for the Minnesota Timberwolves. Is director of international scouting. He was back here at the basketball game within the last three or four years.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Oh, really?
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Jarco is a good friend and actually we are from the same hometown. Podgorica.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Right. So Gene Smithson had some experience recruiting from that part of. That part of the world.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Gene was a great guy.
Actually. I really, really liked him. Unfortunately, very unfortunately, he got fired after the first year I was playing there. And I mean, it was a heartbreaker actually for me because I didn't know what was. I. I didn't know what was coming because the deal that I had and the deal that Gene had with me and my family was that he was going to be the one for me over there in Wichita.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: What did you enjoy about playing for Gene?
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Well, I liked. I truly, truly liked the phrase mtxc. I don't know if anybody remembers that. It was mental toughness, extra effort.
And he. He tried to make us play like that. And during my whole career, and as you said, I played Till I was 36, I tried, I tried always to remember that and act in every game with mental toughness and extra effort. And Gene was actually a great guy. Then he introduced me to. From family, which were beautiful people.
So sometimes I could go for dinner, you know, because in those times, actually we were suffering A lot. You know, there was a problem even to get good food on the table. I think I was living off of maybe $300 a month.
That's what we had at disposal to pay the rent and to get. To get some food. So actually it was very difficult. And then we actually had to work in summer. I remember, man, how many different jobs did I do? So that was the only way to work in the summer and somehow make some money and you would have good food on the table during the year. You had to do your planning really, really well.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: We'll be happy to know MTXC has made a comeback that's back on uniforms quite often. And so there will be. That will definitely be familiar with that.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: That's amazing because Gene was a special kind of guy. Truly, truly special kind of guy.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: So the shocker teams that you played on played in the 1987 and 88 NCAA tournaments, 1989, NIT, all of those under coach Eddie Fogler. Tell us a little bit about those teams and what made them successful.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Well, Eddy brought something a little bit different to the game when he. When he came, you know, at the same time, I had, you know, big issues with some of the things and the ways that he had done. But I think it was mostly on a cultural level, you know, because we were taught, you know, that where I was growing up, that you have to find your way out, you know, somehow always of the situations. But on the other hand, Eddie was doing everything in unbelievable order and with 300 sets of rules. And I never really liked following those rules.
But anyway, I learned so much from him also. I learned so many things from him that I use them during my whole life. Even today, even today in managing in my company, I'm using some things that I learned from him regarding the teams.
I remember the players. I really like the guy, the guys that were around. It was really, really good for me to have tomorrow in the beginning on my side because actually, I think he was a second or third generation from Croatia and actually he knew a few words of my language. So that was like, really, really helpful in the. In the beginning. But I enjoyed playing with these guys.
Joe Griffin brothers. Twin brothers. Preloads.
Yeah. Gary Candief, man, what. What a game did he have in the final game against Tulsa? What year was it?
[00:10:11] Speaker A: That would have been the 87 Valley Tournament championship game. That the shots.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Gary came out of nowhere and I mean, he had a great game and he was the most deserving for that victory, by the way. I made two free throws at the end of the game with 10 or 15. You let me, you send me that video. I haven't seen that video in 41 years actually, and I forgot about it.
So, yes, you know, it truly was great, great, great part of my life being there.
Especially, you know, today. When people look at the United States today from our parts of the world, from the other parts of the world, you don't see that very many things, good things coming out.
You don't really wish to live over there. Unfortunately, that's how it looks from inside.
But then on the other hand, when I was in Wichita, I met only good people. I mean, it was like in these movies. You really meet this honest, hard working, kind of little bit naive. I don't want to say naive, but really, really, really nice people.
Really nice people.
And I met a lot. I never met anybody in Wichita that didn't already know who I was. It was really, really popular. And we had televised games every time, you know, so people really, really, really followed everything.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: We certainly like being being known as friendly people. And I will remind fans some of the other names that would have been on, on the teams of that era. Henry Carr, Gus Santos.
You mentioned the Prelo Twins. Steve Grayer was a big part of those teams.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Yes, Steve. Steve was a great, great kid. Unbelievably good kid. Then Paul Gofrovich, then John Cooper.
Yeah, I mean, wow, they were good kids. All of them were actually really, really kids.
But the funniest of all, the funniest of all was Tom Kosich. I have to say.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: He does have a sense of humor.
Yes.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah, he was really good for the team, you know, because it's not always about. Mostly it's not about who is the best player or if you have the best players on the team. Actually, you have to have those kind of guys that can put all the other guys together, you know, And I think Tom played a big part in it, actually.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Those, those type of people are important.
You started a club team, basketball team in your hometown and said that many of the lessons you learned from your time at Wichita State were helpful. Tell us a little bit about, you know, what you learned from your coaches and how that helped you get that club operating.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Yes. So when I went back maybe four or five years after that, I made basketball facility, had three basketball courts, dormitory, you know, and I formed a basketball school. I would always have three or 400 kids. And then on the other side, I had the special team where the most talented kids were playing from Montenegro.
And I Had every single kid and parent sign a document before joining the club. And actually, most of the rules that they had to sign, they were made from my experience with working with a defogler, you know, because I wanted.
At some moments, I would have 15, 20 teams competing at the same time, different age groups.
So I wanted my team to look. Even though if they didn't have the shirts on, that you could say, well, this is Sasha's voice. So, for example, when somebody. When there was somebody would go out of the game, regardless if he played well or if he. He played bad, everybody on the bench had to get up and touch his.
And give him a high five.
If somebody fell on the floor, at least two guys needed to run up to him and help him get up.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Really big rule was that you cannot talk to referees. Then no involvement of the parents. And. And I mean, so many things. And yes, I did succeed that all my teams, because of all these rules that were implemented, actually, all of them coming from.
I mean, 99% coming from Wichita State, my teams looked exactly. Exactly the same.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: Those all sound like. Yes. Those all sound like Eddie Fogler things. Definitely.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But they were great rules. I didn't like them when I was.
When I was.
When I was playing under him. But then actually, you know, you come back from years to years on the things that you.
That you have done, how people have treated you. And of course, in this process, if you are honest to yourself, you keep maturing as a person.
And I came to that point very quickly after my career as a basketball player was finished, that actually Eddie Fogler was right in everything that he was doing, actually, you know, so. And I think he was the best player I have ever had in my life. And I had many. I had many, and I had great coaches, but without. Without thinking. I know. And you know something?
Many people pushed me to be the coach because they saw in me somebody that educated, that had huge experience, that knew how to motivate people and things like that. But I never wanted to be a coach, and I will tell you why.
The only reason was I knew I could never be as good as of a coach as Eddie Fogler.
And I didn't want to go for less. I just didn't want to go for less. And I knew it was unbelievably difficult, and if I was not on top of the game, I didn't want to be part of it.
So, yeah, man, you're bringing Paul. So many memories.
He's crazy.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Certainly an excellent coach. Also coached at Vanderbilt and South Carolina.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: He, he, he was under Dean Smith for I think, 16 or 17 years. He was his assistant coach. So actually what he brought to Wichita State was North Carolina way of playing.
You know, it was exactly, exactly this, the same. I would watch North Carolina games and I would see our defenses, our offenses, I would see everything exactly, exactly the same.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: No doubt he was a longtime assistant under Dean Smith and learned it there.
So there are going to be people listening to this that are saying, when is he going to ask him about the ball between the legs trick, which is one of the things you are most known for. I will enclose a picture. You sent a video so the people that haven't seen it will get a chance to see it. Tell us about how that became a part of your game.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Well, when I was growing up, I lived maybe 150 yards away from the most popular playground in Montenegro, Podgorica. So since very, very small age, the only thing we were trying to do, not the only thing, but mostly we would try to mess around and try to fake people out.
And I started doing this thing when I was 9 or 10 years old. You know, it came, came naturally, but there was a whole tactic to it, how I would prepare the people to actually react to that. I've done it, I think 40, 50 times at least in my, in my career.
And the main point was that the referees would get so shocked, they, they didn't know what was happening and they didn't have time to react. And then they would never call anything just as an anecdote. One time, playing for my home club on a televised game, I did the fake.
So all five defensive players start running to the other side and two from two of my teammates together with them. So seven were involved in the, in the, in the fake. I, I cannot forget something when I did that fake, of course, Fogler substituted me.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: That does not seem like you can,
[00:19:58] Speaker B: you can imagine how much I didn't like that.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: And to be clear, I, I'll let you describe it. What is the, how do, how do you describe the play?
[00:20:07] Speaker B: No, the play is, you know, it's a psychological game. How I would do it, I would set them up in which way I would make them upset with me, you know, in previous two plays, maybe lean on them, hit them with a little, with the elbow. So I would get them into the state of mind when they would be, they have to be very aggressive with me. They have to really pay attention to me. And right before the fake, maybe I would bump Them with the elbow, but not to provoke the foul. And then I would put the ball in between my legs quickly since they are behind me. Since they're behind me, they wouldn't see where the ball is. And then I would just throw with both hands like I was throwing the ball behind my back. And I would look for it like the ball actually went over there. So not one single time did the fake not work. It always worked. Always.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: And that is certainly well remembered by Shocker fans.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: I was proud of that one. But I didn't abuse it because it wouldn't work if I abused it. So maybe I would do it once in two years. Once in a year or something like that.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: You met your wife Barbara at Wichita State. Now you have two children, two grandchildren. Barbara was not a basketball fan. How did that play into the start of your relationship?
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Well, to tell you the truth, great.
And I think that's what put us together. That she didn't have a clue who I was, the first person ever I met in Wichita that she didn't know who I was. She didn't know that the basketball was important.
She didn't know anything about anything. And actually that was like a huge, huge plus for me because she didn't look at me from the beginning as a basketball player. She just looked at me as Sasha as an interesting person, person with hopefully interesting accent.
The person that was maybe thinking a different way that from what she was used to.
So that that's what really. And by the way, she was really, really beautiful and she still is.
So it was not so difficult. So actually we are already, I think 39 years together and Wichita has its own fault for that.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Well, congratulations. Congratulations on 39 years.
Not all athletes easily move from their athletic career, their playing days and into a new career.
Describe your transition from basketball into the. I guess I'll call it the construction, the home building industry.
And how did it go so smoothly for you?
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Well, it didn't go so smoothly. Maybe now from this perspective it can look like it went smooth. Smooth. But yeah, what happened when I was playing in Spain and actually in Spain I played nine seasons at the moment that was the strongest and today even is still the strongest league in, in Europe.
And most of the clubs in Spain, they have some kind of sponsor. Yeah. And it happened that one of the sponsors from the clubs that I have played, for example, was producing doors. The other one was doing sanitary wear. The third one was factory for tiles.
So I think two or three days after I finished my career at 36, I formed the company and I start importing these construction materials to Balkans.
And of course had huge, huge bumps. And because I didn't have any knowledge about these things, the only thing I understood here, it's cheaper than what it is in Balkans. So if I buy it for one, I see I can sell it for two. And this is what I should be doing.
So anyway, yeah, it was a long, long, long way for me in this.
Now it looks easy, but no, it's more, much, much more difficult than playing basketball. And one thing I really want to comment, I think about that very, very, very often.
How actually does basketball doesn't prepare you for true life and for what is truly, truly because I've seen so many of my colleagues, myself included, struggling with the life afterwards, struggling in their marriages, struggling with their children, struggling with drugs, struggling with alcohol, with everything. And then many, many of them, they lived, even though they're 40, 45, 50, they live for of that day when they made the free throws against Tulsa, you know, and it's a huge, huge problems if you don't make enough money during your professional career and if you don't know how to save the money and nobody, nobody teaches you like that for that. So, for example, what was my situation in Spain?
I go, I play for somebody, they take care of my house, they take care of school for my kids, they pay my electric bills, they pay everything. They do anything in the world. So you just don't have to think about anything else except coming to practice and performing in games.
So this kind of life doesn't prepare you for anything. Even though I prided myself that I come from a good family, educated people, and actually I graduated in Wichita instead of in four years, I graduated in three years.
I was a very good student, actually.
It doesn't prepare you. It doesn't prepare you. It doesn't prepare you for anything. And I think very, very few people during their professional careers actually, and if they are smart, can make enough money that actually it would last. It just doesn't happen. I was the other day with Vlade Divac, and I mean, he's a great guy, but I'm not sure, you know, what, you know. I mean, I think he's doing great, but it's not like he's killing it or I meet many people because there are many, many great players that came from ex Yugoslavia and very, very few of them, unfortunately are being successful in their lives afterwards. I see a lot of them have problem in their marriages. That's, that's like really, really like rampant you know, because after playing, I mean, what do you do? What do you do with yourself?
All of a sudden you're spending time. Your wife is spending time with a person that she doesn't know because he was never home, he was always on practices, he was always on trips. The guy, all of a sudden he doesn't feel like spending so much time, he's meeting his wife for the first time.
So it's unbelievably complicated. I see it as unbelievably complicated.
[00:28:22] Speaker A: You said that relationships mattered a great deal as you started your business. How did you go about developing strong connections to people that helped?
[00:28:34] Speaker B: Okay, you're going to laugh now.
Let me try really to say how it is so, how it happened for me, when I wanted to do something, especially internationally, I would look who at the moment.
Like for example, if I needed contact in France, I would look for somebody that was my age group. I would look who is successful in the afterlife. And even though I didn't know that basketball player, I would call him up and it would be like brotherhood. And if I needed some connection on some favors, everybody is more than happy to do it immediately.
So that was the way, that was one of the ways that I have done it. And yes, connections are the most important part things for anything really. It's truly about who do you know and if you have the guts to do the things.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: We were talking yesterday to do some preparation. You said that you're willing to go against the tide to find a better solution. How has that personality, how's that helped your success?
[00:29:55] Speaker B: You keep repeating success.
I don't know if I would define what I'm doing is a success.
I don't feel like I'm sitting on top of the mountain, you know, I. I truly don't.
I work every day, at least 16 hours at the moment. At least 16 hours. And. And yes, I always went against, against the usual ways. And that's how more or less, I. I built my company in UK and on purpose, the name of the company is Black Sheep.
Because I wanted to show immediately that I'm different and that I'm doing the things the different way, different way than the other construction companies in uk. And I am doing it totally different than anybody else. I'm using, I speak five languages, I'm using my contacts from all, all over the world.
I don't buy any materials in uk.
I import everything. I deal with logistics from China, Turkey, Spain, Serbia, Montenegro.
And that's where I created all these relationships that helped me deliver projects for Less money than other people, but with a better quality products.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: If Wichita State were to bring you back to campus and say, sasha, we'd like you to spend a couple days, talk to our business students, talk to our business faculty.
What kind of advice would you give them?
[00:31:44] Speaker B: Trust your gut feeling and go for it.
And don't pay attention what other people say. Don't pay attention. No, no. Trust yourself because you know who you are the best, you know, you know what you can do the best.
So just, just, just go for it and trust. And if you're not successful, you will be. The next time. That happened to me, there were so many bumps on the road, you cannot believe it. You know, like in one single game, yeah, you can go 20 points down, and at the end of, you know, you can be up, you can be down again. It's life. I'm not saying anything, anything new.
And please try to stay humble.
You have to be humble. You have to be humble and you have to be good to people. Every day, every single day of my life, I ask myself in one part of the day, Sasha, have you been honest?
Have you done the right thing?
Did you treat the people well? Did you treat your partners well? Did you offend somebody? If you did, make sure tomorrow you make a phone call and apologize. What? For what you have done.
So, yeah, it's very complex everything, truly.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: What are you reading or what are you watching? Do you have something that you would recommend people check out?
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Well, the only. I. I don't watch television.
I don't have time. The only thing I'm watching is the highlights of Luca Donches and Jokic.
Every morning, the first thing I wake up in the morning, I try to watch their highlights from the night before.
Usually what I'm reading the most is at the moment, is everything. Anything about the different kind of construction materials. But if I do read, I always go back to Dostoevsky, to Tolstoy, to remark to, you know, and I like the history books. I like to find out about how did some nations become to be nations.
I follow politics very, very much. Every. Every morning I read at least four or five different.
How do you call them?
Like newspapers? Do you still call them newspapers?
[00:34:34] Speaker A: I think people will get the reference even though they're no longer printed newspapers. Yes.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I do. And I keep being unbelievably curious person.
I'm very, very curious still.
And to tell you the truth, I don't think I ever felt better in my life that I do. Even though I'm 62 at the moment seems and I'm a grandfather but actually I never felt better. I trained maybe four or five times a week.
I have the same weight like when I was playing in Wichita, you know.
So yeah, it's a lot of hard work. Everything is a lot of hard work.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Really be curious and watch Nikola Jokic and Luka Doncic highlights. Those are two good pieces of advice.
Sasha Radunovich, former Wichita State basketball player, all Missouri Valley conference pick in 1988 and he is co founder and COO of Black Sheep Homes. Sasha, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: But listen Paul, I would like to say one thing, please.
If they listen to this podcast, I would really, really like to say hello to from family, especially to Jill and I would like to say hello to street family, especially to Ted and Imgurt. They were really, really good people and they took care of me as if I was their own kid.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: And thank you.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: One more thing and thank you from all the people from Wichita receiving me from than communist country or whatever like one of their own.
It was probably the best period, you know, I mean one of the best periods of my life.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: Well, that's good to hear. I'm glad it was a good experience for you. And once again, thank you very much for your time.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Thank you, Paul.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to the Roundhouse podcast courtesy of Wichita State University Strategic Communications. We encourage you to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more roundhouse
[email protected] Boudreau Cross the timeline.
[00:37:13] Speaker C: Double teamed out front. Fires for three and misses off the heels. Rebound Henry Carr, he's hammered. Loose ball. Grayer with the rebound. They'll have to foul him. And they do. Three seconds left. This is it. Wichita State is on its way back to the big dance. The Shockers cannot lose this one unless they get a silly technical foul or something. Three seconds to go. Even if Graham misses here, the Shockers can just get out of the way. Tulsa would have to make a three pointer and then try to get a timeout call. And even at that Wichita State, they probably would not have time to do both. If prayer makes any of these, it's all over. Well, where are all these people going, for heaven's sake? You must be right, Michael, because everybody's leaving. Steve Breyer with a career high in rebounds. 12. And the last two have been huge ones for Wichita State.
Steve Finn shoots good.
Steve Grayer, 3 for 2 for 2 from the line. 14 points. Wichita State on the way to the NCAA tournament.
An ecstatic shocker. Bench prayer. Ready again. Three seconds to go. Five point lead in Overture. People are throwing trash. Very nice sportsmanship. People are throwing trash onto the floor.
And you know something? That's insulting to the Tulip team also. They have played a marvelous game. And then to mar the ending with something like that, what a great college basketball game this has been.
Grayer ready. Pushes it up short. This time, Steve just kind of gets out of the way. Lloyd fires at the length of the floor, hits the backboard. It's over. Wichita State on the way to the NCAA tournament. Final score in overtime. Wichita State 79, Tulsa 74.
